Chad Daybell Trial: Detective Stubbs Was Back on the Stand Followed by FBI Special Agent Steve Daniels.

Prosecutor Rob Wood asked Detective Stubbs about the search that had been conducted on the three apartments which had belonged to Lori, her brother Alex and her niece Melani P. This was the first search for JJ. Stubbs confirmed that he had been wearing a body camera.

Wood admitted into evidence and displayed the body cam footage for the court. >>Here<< is one of the places that you can find it to watch. Stubbs said that the video was from November 17thm 2019. The video showed Stubbs walking into apartment 175, which was Lori’s apartment.

In the video Stubbs narrated that he was in the front room and that there was some damage to the door from the no-knock entry warrant. As he walked into the kitchen, he said that there had been keys that had been left on the counter, an envelope from Amazon to Lori Vallow and food in the pantry.

In the video Stubbs then walked into the garage where there were couches, tables, guns, and several totes.

Stubbs then walked up the stairs where there was the master bedroom and the master bathroom. There were a lot of hangers in the closet but nothing else.

Wood asked Stubbs if the empty closet was of note to him. Stubbs said yes that it had made him think that the occupants left in haste because of the visit the day before.

In the video there were two small computer desks with a printer and on the printer was a lease agreement for Lori Ryan.

He then walked down the hall and past the laundry room where there were two additional bedrooms. In one room there was a bed and in the closet were some coats, an empty box, a fan, a bedspread, and winter clothes in a box. The other bedroom had a bed, three guitar cases with guitars and a duffle bag full of toiletries that appear to belong to a man. The closet was fairly empty except for two swords and empty laundry baskets.

Wood asked Stubbs if had done any other walk-throughs of apartments that day with his body cam. He said that he did a walk-through of apartment 174 which was right next door. He said that it was Lori's niece, Melani P's apartment. Wood asked Stubbs if anything had stood out to him. He said that it appeared that someone was still living there, that there were clothes in the closet and a was a car in the garage. He said he thought what was odd was he had noticed on the counter she had a three-ring binder with clear plastic organizers inside. He said he thought it was off because he knew Brandon and Melani P. were divorced but she had numerous of his credit cards and driver’s license in there.

Wood then displayed footage of Stubbs entering Melani P's apartment. There was furniture inside and pictures on the wall. There were items on the counters including electronics and a purse. Brandon Boudreaux’s credit cards were on the counter and so was his driver’s license. 

Stubbs confirmed that JJ was not located that day. Wood asked if the search for JJ ever expanded to include the search for Tylee. Stubbs said yes.

Wood asked Stubbs if he participated or wrote warrants for the cellular or digital evidence in the case. Stubbs said that he did. Wood asked Stubbs if he had prepared a list of the digital evidence. Stubbs said yes.  

Wood asked Stubbs if he ever found evidence that Brandon had lived in apartment 174. Stubbs said no. 

Wood published an exhibit that showed the list of warrants Stubbs obtained. Wood asked Stubbs how many warrants of digital evidence he had obtained in the case. Stubbs said 20.

Stubbs said that the first warrant was to Verizon for the original phone number associated with Lori. Wood asked Stubbs if he had attained any useful information from the warrant. He said yes.

Stubbs said that warrants 77- 63 were made before the children were found. They were all done in attempts to locate the children and Lori.

Stubbs said that the information that they had gathered from the first warrant led to them getting the second warrant. He said that Verizon returned the warrant with names and email addresses associated with Lori’s first number. Stubbs said that anytime someone social media such as a Gmail account, Google keeps records of what you do, when you do it and where you are.

Wood asked Stubbs if someone can opt out of geolocation tracking. Stubbs said that there is an option to turn off location services and it would prohibit Google from keeping that information.

Wood had Stubbs read the four accounts that he had searched. 

1. HomerJMaximus@Gmail.com- Alex Cox
2. Lollytime4ever@gmail.com- Lori
3. Lori4style@icloud.com- Lori
4. Chad.daybell@Gmail.com- Chad Daybell

Wood asked Stubbs if he had been able to obtain any geolocation data from those accounts. He said yes and that the HomerJMaximus one gave them the most information.

Wood asked Stubbs what the next warrant had been written for. Stubbs reminded the court that at the time they were still in the process of trying to locate JJ and Tylee. Stubbs got choked up and paused and then he said that he was sorry. He said that the warrant was for a P.O. box they had located for Lori in Sugar City, Idaho. He said that they found a Verizon bill that had several numbers listed for Lori, Tylee, Alex and Charles that authorities didn't already have. He said that then they got a warrant for those numbers so they could get additional information and find the children.

Wood asked Stubbs if there was any useful information from that. Stubbs said yeah that it solidified a lot of what they had already done, numbers that were associated. He said that they were able to eliminate a lot of those phones.

Stubbs went on to explain another warrant. He said that when the apartments were abandoned after November 27th, 175 particularly the landlords or owners went in to clean the units and found two electronic devices that were turned over to police. Police issued a warrant on those devices. Raylamar@Gmail.com and HomerJMaximus@Gmail.com were associated with those devices.

Stubbs talked about another warrant, which was a tap-and-trace warrant. He said that they still hadn't gotten answers from Lori as to where the kids were. Stubbs said that Verizon sent police live data as the phones were on the move. He said that it allowed officers to see where the device was in real time.

Stubbs said that tap-and-trace warrants were for Lori, Alex, Tylee and Chad. Wood asked Stubbs why they were looking at Chad’s location. Stubbs said that Lori and Chad were married, and they couldn’t get a hold of either one of them. He said that they couldn’t get any straight answers from either one. He said that they couldn’t get information on where the children were. And they were associated.

Wood asked Stubbs if they were able to locate Lori and Chad using those warrants. Stubbs said that the devices tracked to Kauai, Hawaii. 

Stubbs said that upon finding where Chad and Lori were, they had investigators and FBI go to Hawaii and locate Chad and Lori. He said that a warrant had been obtained to gather evidence from their vehicle and residence. He said that ten electronic devices were taken from their rental car.

Wood asked Stubbs if he had gone through the devices himself or had help. Stubbs said that the information they get back from Google or Verizon they can be thousands of pages long and just for one person to go through all the data, especially in a short time frame, it was simply impossible. Stubbs said he had worked with the FBI and other agencies to go through all the information.

Stubbs said that there was another tap-and-trace warrant. He said that at the time they still had no answers even after contacting Chad and Lori as to where the children were.

The next warrant Stubbs talked about was of devices that they had seized from #174, Melani P.'s apartment. Stubbs said that software at the time that the FBI used couldn't break into the phones, only the tablet. Stubbs said that forensic software is always slightly behind. He said that for example, whenever a phone comes out with new technology, forensic people who develop software are always taking the new device and trying to figure out how it "ticks". So, the software hadn't been updated so they could break into the passcodes.

Stubbs said that the devices taken from Melani P's apartment had two phone numbers linked to her. Stubbs said that that was before Tylee and JJ had been found in 2020. Melani P wouldn't give the authorities a straight answer to where the kids were either.

Wood asked Stubbs if he had the chance to interview Melani P. He said that he only had interaction with her when she was being interviewed in obtaining her phone to do a forensic on it. 

Stubbs agreed that one of the ways to collect evidence is off the device itself as well as the phone carrier and app companies.

Stubbs said that after Lori and Chad had been served in Hawaii a notebook was found in their vehicle that had pages of email accounts and passwords. He said that police worked to obtain warrants on the accounts.

Stubbs said that on a lot of the devices found they had the "Smule" app. He said that it was a music sharing app, but it also had a place that you could send messages back and forth. So, a warrant had been written to the company.

Stubbs testified that the children had been found on Chad’s property on June 9th, 2020, and additional warrants had been issued after that time. Even though the kids had been found, there had still been a lot of questions that needed answered.  Stubbs said that a warrant had been written FBI and police to bring specialized equipment on the property to get cell phone signal strengths.

Stubbs said that they had wanted to find anyone who had spent significant time in or near Chad’s property and Lori’s apartment on critical dates. He said that they wanted to see if there was anyone else officers should be investigating. 

Stubbs agreed that if someone had their Google location turned off, they would not show up in the geolocation search.

Stubbs said that they narrowed it down to 12 devices of interest. He said that they requested warrants on the 12 devices to find out who they belonged to. Stubbs said that Google did not respond and after much time passed, he got a hold of someone at the company and was told 12 devices was too broad and suggested that they narrow their search. Stubbs said that he lessened the request by two and asked for details on ten devices. Stubbs said they ended up receiving information for those 10 accounts. 

Stubbs says an independent expert was brought in to for an outsider’s perspective on the devices and nothing new was discovered. 

Wood asked Stubbs about some of things found when he did his searches. He asked Stubbs if there had been any searches that had stood out to him made by the lollytime account. Stubbs said that on August 25th, the user, which was Lori, looked up "wedding rings made of malachite" and visited websites about rings. He said that the user tried to purchase two rings, an 11.5 size and 4.2 size with a total of $808. He said that the credit card failed, and the purchase had been declined.

Stubbs said that on September 20th, the user searched the definition of possessed. He said that on September 30th, she looked up how to remove the back seat of a Jeep and then watched a video about how to do it. Stubbs said that two days later, a gray Jeep Wrangler with Texas license plates had been used to shoot at Brandon in Arizona. He said confirmed that it had been the same Jeep found in Rexburg on November 4th, 2019.

Stubbs said he searched the search history of Chad.daybell@gmail.com because the children had still been missing. Stubbs said that the user of the account had been Chad, and on September 8, 2019, the user of the account looked up what the wind direction was going to be on September 9th. Stubbs said it was significant because it had been believed that on the 9th, Tylee’s body had been burned and buried in the fire pit behind Chad’s house.

Wood asked Stubbs about a flash drive he found in Lori and Chad's possession in Hawaii. Stubbs said that on the drive had been several photos of Chad and Lori’s wedding from November 5th, 2019. Stubbs said that he had used forensic software to search the device so the original content had not been disturbed. Stubbs said he had found that photos of Chad, Tammy, their kids, Chad and Tammy’s courtship to their marriage to their kids being born and there kids growing up had all been deleted.

Court took a recess and when they came back, Wood published a photo of Lori and Chad on the beach with a wedding officiant on the beach. 

The next image was of Chad holding Lori in his arms on the beach as they kiss. 

The next photo was of Lori doing the hula with Chad playing a ukulele. 

The next photo was of Chad and Lori looking into each other’s eyes. 

Another photo showed their malachite rings.

Another image was of Lori’s ring on her left hand. 

Next was a picture of Chad’s ring. 

The next picture is of Chad and Lori standing in front of the LDS temple in Hawaii. 

Wood had no further questions.

Prior was up for the cross. He asked about Universal Time in adjusting cellular data. Stubbs said that the UTC was a standard time and depending on where you were at in the world, it was UTC plus or minus. In Rexburg, it was UTS -6 or -7 depending on daylight saving.

Prior asked for clarification about who was living in which apartment in Rexburg. 175 was Lori, 174 Melani P and 107 Alex had been at one time. Prior asked Stubbs if he had gone through the garages of those units. Stubbs said yes.

Prior asked Stubbs to review 15 photos on a computer to see if he could recognize things as being found in 175. Stubbs said he was involved in searching 174 and doesn’t personally recall seeing the items in the photos.  

Prior asked if Stubbs found any evidence that tickets to Disneyland or Knotts Berry Farm were purchased. Stubbs said that he didn’t personally investigate that aspect of the case but was aware of a trip.

Prior said that just because Lori’s apartment was vacated, that didn't mean Chad’s home was vacated. Stubbs said that they hadn't searched Chad’s house, they searched Lori’s.

Prior asked Stubbs if he was aware Chad was not implicated in the attempted murder of Brandon. Stubbs said that he was aware.

Prior asked Stubbs about trying to reach Melanie Gibb and said that Gibb lied to police. Stubbs said that he hadn't been involved in that part of the investigation. 

Prior asked Stubbs about Lori saying she was going to move to live with Gibb. Stubbs said he recalled that. He then stated how Lori had told them that Gibb and JJ were at "Frozen 2." Prior asked Stubbs if he looked into the possibility that Lori had been moving to live with Melanie. Stubbs said that they had looked into that possibility.

Prior asked Stubbs if he had ever looked at Gibb’s phone records. Stubbs said no. Prior asked Stubbs if he had looked at David Warwick’s phone records. Stubbs said no.

Prior asked Stubbs if he had been aware of the circumstances that had surrounded September 22nd and 23rd, which had been when JJ disappeared. Prior asked Stubbs if he had been aware that David and Gibb had been at Lori’s house when JJ was last seen alive. Stubbs said that there had been a number of people at Lori's house.

Prior asked Stubbs if he agreed that Lori could be very convincing. Stubbs said no. Prior talked about Stubbs not taking action to keep Lori from fleeing during both visits to her apartment. Stubbs said correct. Stubbs said that they had not established JJ was not Gibb at the time, so they had no reason to detain her.

Prior asked Stubbs about the comment he had made "Not, not." after the visit to Lori’s apartment. Stubbs confirmed that that phrase was used in law enforcement meaning turn off the body cameras. Stubbs said that it had allowed officers to state their opinions without having them recorded.

Prior asked Stubbs how many calls he had made to Chad about JJ. Stubbs said that he had personally did not make any. Stubbs confirmed that there had been no warrant to search Chad’s home at the time.

Prior asked Stubbs if he had ever found a message from Chad to Lori that said, "Let’s kill the kids." Stubbs said he did not.

Stubbs said that prosecutor Rob Wood had been present during the search of Lori’s apartment.

Prior asked about Stubbs tapping phone calls. Stubbs said no. He said that a tap was to listen someone, and they hadn't listened to anyone. 

Prior had no more questions. 

Wood was up for the re-direct. He asked Stubbs if Gibb or David Warwick showed up in the geofence. Stubbs said no. Wood asked Stubbs about the tap and trace and why one wasn’t done on Melanie Gibb. Stubbs said that Gibb had cooperated with police. Wood asked Stubbs if any of Gibb’s or Warwick’s kids had been found on Chad’s property. Stubbs said no. Wood had no further questions.

Next up to the stand was FBI Special Agent Steve Daniels. Daniels was part of the Evidence Response Team (ERT) for the FBI. Daniels said that the ERT is basically crime scene investigator. He said he had worked for the FBI for 26 years and that he had left the ERT one year ago. Daniels said that since 2001, he had helped recover human remains in many cases. He said that when he left ERT, he was the senior team leader in the Salt Lake office.

Daniels said that he was the senior team leader in the search for JJ and Tylee. He said he had worked with other FBI departments and the Rexburg Police Department while planning the search of Chad’s property. He said that they had come up with a search strategy and got satellite imagery of the property along with cell phone information and details of the case.

Daniels said that they had arrived on the property sometime after 7am on June 9th, 2020. He said that eight ERT members were on the site, and they each had pre-assigned roles and responsibilities. He said that someone started a crime scene log, another began taking photos of the crime scene and Daniels started an administrative log of the scene. He said that he had also did a walk thru of the property.

Daniels said that two ERT members were designated to go to or find the fire pit area and further assess it. He said that they had arial images that showed some kind of fire pit. He said that they had a text message talking about burying something in the pet cemetery, so he said that he had needed to figure out where the pet cemetery was. He said that they also had a few telephone pings on the property from September 2019 showing where certain people had been on the property. One of those areas had been northeast of the pond.

Wood admitted photos that had been taken the day law enforcement searched Chad’s property for JJ and Tylee. Daniels said that he had worked with the Salt Lake City Total Station operator, the Salt Lake City Pharaoh Scan operator and with the operational projects unit and created an interactive exhibit detailing the work they had done on Chad’s property.

Daniels said that a total station device was a measuring device that sat on a tripod while using a laser for point-to-point measuring. He explained that a pharaoh scanner was also used to measure and scan things on the property. He said that 40 scans had been performed on the property. He agreed that the data they collected had been voluminous.

Wood admitted the exhibit Daniels prepared. It had the key points from all the scans, measurements and etc. The exhibit was a summary of his findings. 

The first slide showed key locations in and around the city of Rexburg which included the Salem Church, the Daybell property, Walmart, BYU-I Idaho library and Lori’s apartment.

Next was a photo of Chad’s house with a vehicle parked in the driveway.

The next was a photo taken from the second story window looking toward a tree were JJ’s remains were found. There was a trailer parked near the tree that was a law enforcement trailer. 

Another photo from the second story showed the view of the property from the other direction. It showed some of the outbuildings such as a chicken coop, a shed and then a larger barn or shed in the background. Just beyond the barn is where Tylee's remains were found. Over to the right was the firepit area and then a law enforcement vehicle.

The next photo showed the view from a kitchen window. It is still pointed to the east of the property, and you can see the large barn and beyond the barn was Tylee Ryan’s burial site and the fire pit area. 

Next was an image of the property taken from one of the bedrooms at the house. You can see the outbuildings and the large tree where JJ's remains had been found. Just past the large garage was where Tylee's remains had been found.

Next was a satellite image of the property. Daniels pointed out the fire pit and the area near the tree, where they had telephone pings. He said that law enforcement did not exactly where the pet cemetery was located on the property.

The next satellite image was a close up of the fire pit. The location of Tylee’s grave was noted, along with the spot where her charm was found.

Next was a photo of exactly what the area first looked like on June 9th, 2020. Daniel said that they had been able to assess that that it was the pet cemetery because of the dog statute and the depressions in the ground underneath. 

The next image was of the Pharoh scanner and the grids police made on the property. 

The next photo was of the fire pit when they arrived. Daniels said that the fire pit was processed layer by layer. He said they then had begun by removing limbs and then went through each layer one at a time. He said that a tarp had been put down and wooden sifters had been brought in to sort through the soil.

Next was of the fire pit with soil and rocks removed. 

The next image was of the cinderblocks and more of the soil removed.

The next image is a metal necklace-type chain found in the fire pit. Possible bone fragments, organic material, fabric and other items were found in the fire pit.

The next photo was of the silver charm that had been collected in the fire pit. Daniel said that it was one of the first pieces of evidence they had collected on June 9th. He said that the charm had been found just outside of the grid perimeter. 

The next picture was a closer view of the charm. 

The next photo was of the charm, but this time with a placard. 

The next one was a close-up photo with scale.

Physical evidence was then brought into the courtroom by a deputy wearing gloves. They were first given to Prior for inspection and then taken to Daniels. Daniels was wearing gloves as he opened the first exhibit. He identified it as the Pura Vida necklace chain that had been found at Chad's property on June 9th, 2020. The other exhibit was the charm that had been found by the firepit.

Wood then displayed the chain on the big screen to the jury. The chain said Pura Vida on the end of it. Daniels said that it was in the fire pit and the team had found the chain while sifting through soil. 

Wood then displayed the charm on the screen. Daniels said that it was the charm found just outside of the northeast grid permitter on Chad's property on June 9th, 2020.

Wood shows a photo of Tylee and in the picture, Tylee was wearing the chain with charm. (The picture was really awful quality on the live feed. If i am able to find it somewhere else i will put it here at a later date.)

An image of part of the pet cemetery was shown. Dog and cat remains were found in the general area. Daniel said that they initially processed by hand going layer-by-layer and once those remains were removed, they used a backhoe to go deeper. Tylee’s burial site was just north of the pet cemetery site.

Graphic photos were then shown to the jury, prosecution and defense. 

Daniels described the next photo as being one of two vertebrae found at the scene. Daniels said that around the time, there was a smell of human remains decomposing. He said that they then had stopped using the tractor and processed the area by hand.

The next photo was described as white bricks that had been found by the remains and were considered possible evidence. Daniels said at that point they had already found JJ’s burial site and he had been covered with stones and cement.

Daniels said that in the middle of the next photo was the second vertebrae. He said that the hand tools had been brought in.

Daniel said that in the middle of the next photo was a larger piece of white bone. He said that that area ended up being Tylee's burial site.

Daniels described the next photo as being around that bone where they had started to excavate. It said that it showed charred flesh. He said that shovels, rakes and a variety of other smaller tools were used at that point.

The next photo was described showing pieces of Tylee. Daniel said they were the first pieces that they were able to say that they were human remains. Daniel said that they started to wrap up for the day and the remains went to the coroner.

Daniel said that the next picture was a close-up of that charring pink flesh.

Daniels described the next photo of what the scene looked like on June 10.

The next was an exit photo.

The next photo was on June 10th of the orange stakes that had been set up around Tylee’s burial site. It also showed one of the wooden sifters.

The next photo showed a melted green 5-gallon bucket and at the very bottom was Tylee’s skull. Daniels said that on the soil on the top side, there was a harder substance to it that made it difficult for them excavate. He believed it could have been concrete so a backhoe had been brought in to move it.

Daniels described the next photos as close-ups of the melted green bucket and the skull. He said that they excavated it the best they could, but when the team went into the ground to remove the remains, they fell apart. He said that everything fell to pieces, and they picked them up and put them into a body bag. 

Daniel said that the next photo was the coroner's body bad and the pieces that were put into it. 

The next photo was of the anthropologist and the coroner going through the remains once they were removed.

The next photo was described as being a close up of the bricks that were found at the burial site.

The next photo was of Tylee's burial site where they had the backhoe go in a little deeper just to make sure they hadn't missed anything. He said that when they were done, they back filled everything.

The next photo was of the Pharoh scanner, diagrams and the ERT photographs in a line.

The next photo was described as of the big barn on Daybell property. The next photo described as of the inside of the big barn. Daniels said that he had been interested in what tools could be used to bury someone. The next few photos showed tools lined up in the garage.

An image of shovels and other tools that were taken into evidence were shown to the court. Daniel said that they are the tools most likely used in the burial. 

There was a picture of a pickaxe. 

The next photo was a close-up of the pickaxe with the debris on the blade and other black marks.

The next was a closer up of two of the shovels that had been taken into evidence.

The next were more tools that had been taken into evidence.

The next was and overall photo of the garage.

The next one was an overall photo of some of the tools.

This was a photo of the tools that they actually had collected into evidence.

This was a photo of some of the bricks by the shed that were of the same kind that had been over at Tylee's burial site.

Daniels said that all tools had been packaged on scene and then turned over the Rexburg Police Department. 

Wood admitted some physical evidence. A police officer and deputy brought in the tools. Daniels approached the table wearing gloves. He unwrapped the pick and held it up in front of the jury. He said that the pick was dirty. He then unwrapped the next exhibit which was a shovel. Daniels said that the shovel seemed dirty and was a tool they were interested in from the scene. 

Darkmatter: The Chad Daybell Trial: JJ's Grandmother Kay Woodcock Takes the Stand and So Does Chad's Mother and His Sister-in-Law. (darkmatter69.blogspot.com)

The Chad Daybell Trial: JJ's Grandmother Kay Woodcock Takes the Stand and So Does Chad's Mother and His Sister-in-Law.

 

It was day 15 in the Chad Daybell trial. Kay Woodcock was first on the stand. Kay has lived in Louisiana all her life. 

Prosecutor Rob Wood published a photo of JJ and Kay who it was. She said that it was her grandson, JJ Vallow. Kay explained that her son and his girlfriend had a baby who was JJ that they had named him Canaan Trahan and they were unable to care for him, so he came to live with Kay and her husband Larry.

Kay said that JJ was born ten weeks premature and weighed around 2.5 lbs. She said that he was born with drugs in his system and spent some time in the hospital. She said that after JJ was out of the hospital, he lived with Larry and Kay for 8 or 9 months.

Wood asked Kay if she knew who Charles Vallow was. Kay said yes, he was her older brother.

Wood asked Kay who Charles was married to at the time of JJ's birth. Kay said that Charles was married to Lori. Wood asked Kay if any time had JJ went to live with Charles and Lori. She said that in February of 2013 Charles and Lori were granted custody. She said that her and Larry decided for a while and with a lot of thought that JJ would be better being raised by them. She said that Charles and Lori had approached them early on and asked them if they could adopt JJ. She said that her and Larry finally agreed to it, and they would maintain the roll of grandparents in his life. Kay said that when Charles and Lori adopted JJ, they changed his name to Joshua Jackson Vallow.

Wood asked Kay if after Charles and Lori had adopted JJ, did they maintain a relationship with him. Kay said yes, they did. She said that she and Larry had a really hard time letting JJ go. She said that when they lived in Phoenix, she and Larry would go see him every 2-3 months. She said that when Charles and Lori moved to Hawaii in July of 2014, she would go visit JJ in Hawaii and stay 7-10 days.

Wood asked Kay what her relationship was like with Charles and Lori. Kay said that she was very close with Charles. She said that Charles was the proud dad and would send pictures and videos of JJ all the time. She said, "We were very close." Kay said that Lori and Charles were doting and loving to JJ and that they studied autism and how to handle his meltdowns. She said when she and Larry would visit, Charles and Lori would often leave and go away for a day or two so that they could spend time with JJ.

Wood published a photo of Tylee and asked Kay if she knew who it was. Kay said yes it was Tylee Ryan. He asked Kay who Tylee's mother was. She said Lori.

Wood asked Kay if she had met Colby Ryan. She said yes. Wood asked her if she had ever met Alex Cox. She said yes. Wood asked if she had spent much time with him. She said not really, a handful of times in passing but never really sat down and had a conversation with him.

Wood asked Kay when had Charles and Lori moved back to Arizona from Hawaii. She said that it was at the very end of December of 2016. She said that when they moved back, they could visit more frequently.

Wood asked Kay if she saw JJ in January 2019. She said she believed it was February 1st. She said that Charles and Lori separated at the end of January, and she flew out to Arizona to help Charles with JJ because Charles was very distraught. Wood asked Kay if she knew where Lori was. Kay said nope that nobody that knew where Lori was would tell Charles where she went.

Wood asked Kay if in the beginning of 2019, had she had a change to watch JJ and take him to her home. She said yes on many occasions. She said that in February/March she would bring JJ home with her to Louisiana or she would stay with him in Chandler if Charles was working. Toward the end of March, Kay helped Charles pack up his house in Arizona and helped moved him to Houston so he would be closer to Louisiana, where Kay and Larry lived. She said that she would drive the 2 hours from Louisiana to Houston to watch JJ and that they were very good times.
Wood asked Kay if any time in 2019 had Lori come to Houston. She said yes, in mid-April. Wood asked Kay if there were any attempts at reconciliation. She said that Charles really wanted a reconciliation, but Lori wasn’t interested at all.

Wood asked Kay what Charles did for a living. She said that he was a financial planner and mostly sold annuities. Wood asked Kay if she had been involved in Charles' business. Kay said that she and Larry had owned a business and because of that Charles had asked Kay to help him with his business. She said that she would do accounts payable, receivable, payroll, Excell spreadsheets and things like that.

Wood asked Kay if she had had access to any of Charles' online accounts. She said that she had access to her brother’s email accounts.

Wood asked Kay if after Lori came to Houston had Kay continued to see JJ. She said yes and in May, Charles started visiting Kay and Larry on weekends so JJ could visit with them. Kay said that Charles rented Lori a house in Chandler in June. Wood asked Kay if she knew if at the time had Charles still want a reconciliation of if he expected a divorce. Kay said that Charles was headed for divorce because the day he was murdered, on July 11, he had made arrangements to meet with a friend who was going to show him a house to lease not far from Lori’s. Wood asked Kay if she knew how Charles died. Kay said two gunshot wounds to the chest.

Wood asked Kay if she was aware that Charles had a life insurance policy. She said yes. Wood asked if Kay if she ever had a conversation with Charles about being the beneficiary on the policy. Kay said yes. Wood asked if Kay had made promises to Charles about what she'd do with the money. She said yes, it was a $1 million life insurance policy and she committed to give Charles’ two adult sons $250,000 each, which she had in January 2020. She said that Charles had said the other 50% was for Kay and Larry because they would end up raising JJ if anything had happened to him. Kay said that it was a very short conversation, and she never knew if he followed through and changed the policy.


Wood asked Kay if Charles had told her that she was the beneficiary on the policy. Kay said that she never spoke with Charles again about the policy and she didn’t know she was the beneficiary until the insurance company called after Charles was killed. She said that received the money months after Charles died. Wood asked Kay if Lori ever contacted her about the insurance. Kay said that towards the end of July 2019, and Lori had found the change of beneficiary form and then texted Kay with something like, "Is this why you want JJ? I’ve got five kids and no money, and you get everything."

Wood asked Kay when she last had seen JJ in person. She said that it was the weekend of May 17th when she had a 7th birthday party for JJ. She said that JJ's birthday was on May 25th, so his party was a little early. She said they had it at a pizza place with friends and cousins. Kay said that "It was the last birthday we’d ever have with him."

Wood asked Kay if she had a phone call from JJ after the part. Kay said yes, the last time Kay saw JJ was on FaceTime on August 10th, 2019. Kay said that after Charles was murdered, they had a very hard time getting in touch with Lori. Wood asked Kay if between May 17th, and August 10th, if she had any other digital contact with JJ. Kay said that they were only able to see JJ on FaceTime twice. She said that Lori would limit their contact with JJ. Wood asked Kay if after August 10th, had Kay tried to get a hold of JJ. Kay said yes that she had emailed, texted, left voicemails for Lori but she would never respond, not even one time.

Wood asked Kay if she had tried attempt arrange with Lori for JJ to come to Charles' funeral. She said yes. She said that his services were on August 4th, 2019. Kay said she had arranged with Lori that she would fly out to Arizona and come pick up JJ and bring him back to Louisiana. JJ was going to stay with them for a week and then she was going to bring him back to Arizona. Kay had bought a plane ticket for JJ, and everything was set but after Lori found out about the insurance, Lori said they were too busy and moving to Hawaii and it would be too much for JJ.


Wood asked Kay if anytime in 2019 had she become concerned about JJ's whereabouts. She said absolutely, the minute they found out that of Charles' murder they were extremely worried. She said that they didn't know about Charles' death until the 12th. She said that Lori had texted Charles’ two oldest sons and said their father was dead and then Lori wouldn't answer her phone. She said that is when Charles' oldest son Cole contacted Kay and said Charles was dead. Kay said that she thought it was a joke because Charles was healthy as a horse. She said that then Larry had Googled Charles Vallow’s name and read he had been killed the day before.

Wood asked Kay if it was partially because of the limited contact that Lori would let them have with JJ she had become concerned about JJ's whereabouts. Kay said absolutely. She said that they were working with detectives in Chandler.

Wood asked Kay if she had ever contacted law enforcement about JJ's whereabouts. Kay said absolutely. that once she knew Charles was dead, she knew JJ was in trouble because Lori didn’t want JJ, Tylee or Charles anymore. Kay testified that she had reached out to Detective Nate Moffatt at Chandler police.

Wood asked Kay if after her last FaceTime with JJ on August 10th, had she reached out to law enforcement again to express her concerns. Kay said she spoke often with law enforcement to express her concerns about JJ.

Wood asked Kay if she had taken any steps outside law enforcement to locate JJ. Kay said yes, that after Brandon Boudreaux’s attempted murder, Kay and Brandon began talking and they hired a private investigator and split the cost.

Wood asked Kay if she ever became aware of where Lori was in the fall of 2019. She said yes, she was in Rexburg.

Wood asked Kay if in November of 2019, was JJ ever with Kay. Kay said no.

Kay confirmed that she had access to Charles’ email account, passwords and bank accounts. Wood asked Kay if she ever looked into Charles' Gmail account in November of 2019. She said yes, that on November 8th, 2019, she was trying to hook up his printer to her computer. She said that had woken up at 4:30am with a compulsion to go finish hooking her computer to his printer when noticed Charles’ Gmail account login page was open on her screen. Kay said that she logged in and found an email from Amazon about a delivery. She said that the delivery address was apartment #175 on Pioneer Road in Rexburg. Kay said that she then had opened the browsing history, and it was jaw dropping. She said that she saw a search for malachite wedding rings. She said that there was one purchased for $35 or $36.99. She said that she also saw searches for women’s beach wedding dresses. She said that saw that "she" looked at or purchased a yellow one-piece bathing suit and another search for men’s linen beach clothes size large. Wood asked Kay what the date of the searches were. She said they had been done on October 2nd, 2019. Kay said that was before Tammy's murder. Wood asked Kay why those items drew her attention. She said that she knew Tammy died on October 19th. She said that "It was mind-blowing that they were looking at wedding rings before Tammy’s death."

Wood asked Kay if she had become aware if any time in 2019 that the Rexburg Police department had been looking for JJ. Kay said yes. Wood then asked Kay what she did after she found out. Kay said that she and Larry went to Rexburg in early January 2020 and offered a reward for help in finding JJ and Tylee. She said that nor Lori or Chad would answer questions about the children. Kaye said that they also met with Rexburg police. 

Wood asked Kay if anytime in 2020 had she been made aware that the bodies of JJ and Tylee had been found. Kay said yes on June 9th, 2020, the bodies were found.

Wood had nothing further.

Prior was up for the cross. He asked Kay when it was that Charles and Lori were married. She said it was in February of 2006 and that they were living in Arizona until 2014. She said that they had moved to Hawaii and lived there until the end of 2016 when they moved back to Arizona. She said that then in 2019 Charles moved to Houston and Lori stayed in Arizona.

Prior asked Kay if she knew that early 2019, Lori spent 60 days in Hawaii. Kay said that she has learned through court testimonies and other things, that Lori made several trips to Hawaii during the 70 days she was not talking to JJ. Prior asked Kay if it was correct that JJ ended up with Charles from the first of February into the first part of April. She said yes.

Prior asked Kay if she had known the whereabouts of Tylee at the time. Kay said that she learned later that Tylee made a few trips to Hawaii with her Lori, but Kay didn’t know where Tylee was or who she was staying with.

Prior asked Kay if she was aware that on or around April 16th, Charles had changed his beneficiary back to Lori on his life insurance. Kay said yes that she learned later he had changed it and assumed it was to Lori. Prior asked Kay when the beneficiary was changed back to her. Kay said she wasn't sure because there were issues with the insurance company.

Prior asked Kay when about were the Amazon search. Kay said that on November 8th, 2019, she saw that Lori had searched for items on October 2nd, 2019. Prior asked Kay if Chad had access to Lori’s Amazon account. Kay said that she had no idea. Kay said that Lori was buying new wedding stuff on Charles’ credit card.

Prior had no further questions.

Wood was up for the re-direct. He had Kay clarify when the Amazon search history was from, which was October 2nd, 2019. 

Wood had no further questions.

The next witness to be called to the stand was Angela Yancey. Yancey lives in Idaho Falls and previously worked in payroll and benefits for Sugar Salem School District for 7 years.

Yancey testified that she worked with Tammy but didn’t have a lot of interaction with her as Yancey worked in the district office. Yancey said that once a year she did a benefits meeting for employees to see if they needed to make any changes and she was also available for questions throughout the year. 

Wixom asked Yancey what type of life insurance was offered at the school district. She said that every employee was offered group, which was a $50,000 policy that the district provided and then they had the opportunity to opt in for voluntary life insurance through open enrollment once a year. 

Wixom asked Yancey if she remembered when it was that Tammy started her employment with the school district. Yancey said that she believed it was 2017. Wixom asked Yancey if being a first-time employee had Tammy had the option to increase her insurance. Yancey said that she had the option as a new hire to elect the insurance and if they the minimum amount of $10,000 that locked them to increase that at any time during open enrollment.

Yancey said that when Tammy was first hired, she elected for the minimum $10,000 and had the $50,000 policy was also offered by the district for all employees. Yancey confirmed that first year of Tammy’s employment, she had $60,000 of life insurance. Wixom asked Yancey if during Tammy's second year of employment had she made any increases. Yancey said that she did not. Wixom asked Yancey if Tammy had made any increases at the beginning of 2019. Yancey said that she had.

Wixom asked Yancey to explain the process of making changes to the insurance. She said that the employees fill out a form and can increase up to 5x their salary and once the form is filled out it’s submitted to Yancey and sent to the insurance company.

Wixom asked if Yancey received a request form in September or October of 2019. She said that she did and confirmed that it was related to Tammy's policy. Wixom published Tammy’s change of life insurance form. Wixom had Yancey read out loud what Tammy had asked to have her insurance increased to, which was an additional $80,000 in addition to the $60,000 she already had. Next to be displayed was a page of the same form that showed was Tammy's and Chad's signatures on the form. Tammy elected $20,000 of life insurance for Chad which was $10,000 before the increase. Wixom asked Yancey if there was an open enrollment period. Yancey said that it started in August and went into September. The due date was September 15th but became effective September 1st and that Tammy filled out the form on September 8th.

Wixom asked Yancey if she remembered a claim being submitted on the policy. Yancey said she did. She said that on the morning if the 21st, Chad came into the district office to inquire about filing the life insurance claim. Yancey said that she told him they had to receive a death certificate. Chad had told her that that’s ok because he had ordered eight of them. Wixom asked Yancey if eight death certificates was a normal number to request. She said no.

Wixom asked Yancey what she had explained to Chad the process would be. Yancey said that she gave him a claim form and once that was completed and he had the death certificate, he could bring those back and she would complete the employer statement and send that and all the paperwork plus the death certificate into the insurance company. Wixom asked Yancey if there was anything unusual in the timing of his claim for insurance. Yancey said yes that he came in so quickly. She said that Tammy had passed away Saturday and was in the office Monday morning and he had already ordered the death certificates.

Wixom displayed the beneficiary statement that was a part of the claim form. Wixom asked Yancey if she recognized that as the same one that Chad had submitted. She said that she did. Wixom then had Yancey read one of the questions from the form. "When did health of deceased first become impaired?" Chad had written, "October 18th, 2019."

Wixom displayed a life insurance payout form from LifeMap for $130,000 payable to Chad Daybell. The check was dated November 8th, 2019. Yancey said that Chad was the primary beneficiary of the policy at 100%. No other beneficiaries were included on the plan.

Yancey testified that most of the time, she would search out employee families after deaths to remind them they had life insurance. She said that it was rare that Chad came in so quickly and wanted the insurance money. 

Wixom asked Yancey if there was anything that was not normal about the way the claim was requested. She said that she just remembered that he came in awfully quickly, the amount of death certificates that he ordered, and that Chad returned to file the claim on October 25th as soon as he the death certificates. Yancey said that her co-workers told Chad that she was out of town until October 30th and Chad returned first thing on that date to get the claim filed.

Wixom was done with his questioning.

Prior was up for the cross. He asked Yancey if the number of death certificates would pertain to how many claims or entities need copies for other policies.  Yancey says that was correct. He asked Yancey if there were a number of factors people look at when getting life insurance. Yancey agreed.

Prior asked if Yancey was aware at the time what Chad's occupation was. She said she was not. He asked her if she was aware that Chad didn’t have health insurance because he was self-employed as an author. She was not. 

Prior asked Yancey what Tammy’s salary was. She said she didn't know for sure. Prior suggested Tammy made around $16,000 a year working 35 hours a week.

Prior asked Yancey if the insurance was very reasonable. Yancey said correct. 

Prior asked Yancey how many employees did she oversee. Yancey said over 200. 

Prior asked Yancey why she had specifically remembered her encounter with Chad. She said that she believed any incident that was a bit traumatic would stick in your memory.

Prior asked Yancey if the insurance company got more money if people increased their life insurance. Yancey said they got a commission on the number of people enrolled but not if premiums went up.

Prior had no further questions. 

Wixom was up for the re-direct. He asked Yancey why the situation was traumatic. Yancey said that the death of an employee was traumatic, and the involvement of Lori and the missing children and everything else that had happened.

Wixom had no further questions.

The court took a break, when they came back Sheila Daybell was next up to the stand. She is Chad Daybell’s mother and is married to Jack Daybell. Sheila and Jack have five children: Chad, Paul, Matt, Brad, Becky. Tammy was her daughter-in-law.

Batey asked Sheila when the last time was that she saw Tammy. She said it was on October 13th, 2019, at Tammy’s home in Idaho. Sheila said that she traveled with Jack traveled for a baby blessing. Sheila said that Tammy seemed fine.

Batey asked Sheila if she had received a call from Chad on October 9th, 2019. She said yes that he had told her that Tammy had passed away. She said that she and Jack immediately went to Idaho to Chad and Tammy's house. She said that Chad and the children seemed upset. She said that she had then attended the memorial service for Tammy in Springville, Utah.

Batey asked Sheila if at some time had she learned that Chad had moved out of the residence he had shared with Tammy.  She said yes, she had learned a couple of weeks after Tammy's death. Batey asked Sheila if she had been surprised that Chad had moved out. She said yeah.

Batey said that she wanted to talk about the middle of November 2019. She asked Sheila if she had traveled to Idaho with Jack. Sheila said that she had. She said that they had met Chad for dinner at Texas Roadhouse. She said that Lori was also there. Sheila confirmed that she had never met Lori before. Sheila said that she had noticed Chad and Lori had rings on. She said that Jack asked them if they were engaged, and they said that they were married. Sheila confirmed that she was surprised because it was only a month after Tammy's death.

Batey asked Sheila if Chad or Lori had said anything about if Lori had been married before. Sheila said that Lori had told her that her husband had recently died of a heart attack. Sheila said that Lori also said she had a daughter who had died but didn’t say how old the child was. Batey asked Sheila if Lori had said anything about having a young son. Sheila said no.

Batey asked Sheila if she had known at the time where Chad and Lori were living. She said no, she had just assumed they were living in Idaho but a few weeks later learned they had moved to Hawaii. Sheila confirmed that she would sometimes talk to them on the phone, and that they had never mentioned Lori having young children there with them.

Batey was done with her questioning.

Prior was up for the cross. He asked Sheila to name her children and in-laws. Besides Chad she named Paul whose wife was named Emily and then Matt who he pointed out was in the courtroom wearing a green shirt. Sheila then said that Matt's wife was Heather. Prior asked Sheila if she had a good relationship with Emily. Sheila said yes.

Prior asked Sheila if she remembered at the time of the case that she was contacted by law enforcement and talked to detective Ron Ball. She said yes. Prior asked Sheila if prior to the interview had she had a discussion with Emily about the case and some facts about children. She said yes. Prior said to Sheila that it was Emily that had provided her information about Lori having a daughter. Sheila said that she had talked to Lori at that dinner about having a daughter and the daughter was deceased. Sheila agreed that when she had the interview with Ball. she confirmed that information.

Prior asked Sheila how would she describe Lori's manner in which she had spoken with her. Sheila said that Lori was very friendly and upbeat. Prior asked her if she would use the terms "charming, convincing, persuasive." Sheila agreed. 

Prior asked Sheila if Chad was shy. Sheila said that he could be. Prior asked her if she'd call Chad and bit of an introvert. She said yes. Prior asked Sheila if Chad had a gregarious personality. She said no. Prior said that Chad didn’t have a lot of experiences dealing with relationships. Sheila said that was correct.

Prior asked Sheila if it was a shock that Chad suddenly went from someone like Tammy to someone like Lori. Sheila said yes. Prior asks if, in the LDS faith, it was not uncommon to get married quickly. Sheila it was not uncommon. Prior said when young men return from missions it was not uncommon for them to get engaged and married quickly. Sheila agreed.

Prior said that the day Sheila visited Chad after Tammy had died, he seemed visibly upset. Sheila said yes. Prior asked her if she had stayed long enough to see other people arrive. Sheila said that several people came over while she and Jack were at Chad’s house for around 4-5 hours. Prior asked if Chad gad been businesslike. Sheila said he was acting like someone whose partner had just passed away.

Prior had no further questions. 

Batey was up for the re-direct. She asked Sheila if was common in the LDS faith to get married after your spouse dies. She said that it was not common. 

Batey had no further questions.

Next up to the stand was Heather Daybell. Chad is Heather's brother-in-law. Heather has been married to Chad's younger brother Matt for 30 years and started dating 35 years ago. Heather had known Chad for more than 30 years.

Wixom asked Heather to describe the nature of her relationship with Chad. She said that in the beginning, it was normal as any in-law relationship would be. She said that then she and Matt moved away but when they'd get together, they would talk mainly about his books. She said that things were cordial and nothing out of the ordinary.

Wixom asked Heather at any point had the relationship with Chad changed. She said that it had in 2014, when Chad started talking about the end of times and how he would talk about a book he had published for Julie Rowe. Heather said that she had been concerned about what he had been telling the family and her and Matt. She said that Chad had indicated an earthquake would be happening in 2015 and he was preparing them for these end time events that would cause a lot of destruction in the Salt Lake area.

Wixom asked Heather if Chad had told her why he had thought that the world was coming to an end. She said that Chad had told her that Julie had a vision of it happening and they's discuss it with each other as he published her book. Heather said that Chad then had said he had had those visions too. She said that Chad claimed that he could see future events.

Wixom asked Heather if there had been other teachings from Chad that caused her further concerns. Heather said that in 2014, Chad told his family he was planning to move to Rexburg with his wife and kids. Heather said that she had had a detailed conversation about the move when Chad came to look for homes in Rexburg. She said that she and Matt had asked Chad point blank, to give them the details of why he felt like he had needed to make the move. She said that he indicated that they were looking at houses close to Heather's and Matt's, which had given her some concerns. She said that Chad had told Heather and Matt they would become great leaders in the gathering of people because of destruction in Utah, that their land would help with that, and Heather’s home would become like a church or temple. She said that Chad said that he felt like he needed to be in Rexburg with his family because the LDS Church headquarters would have to move to Rexburg because of the destruction.

Wixom asked Heather if at the time had she believed the visions and teachings that Chad had been sharing. Wixom asked Heather why he had been a concern to her if she hadn't been believing what Chad had said. She said because Chad said he was going to let people know about it with Julie Rowe's book and trying to prepare people as all the destruction happened. Heather said that in the belief system she had at the time in the LDS Church, some average person doesn’t get information like Chad was getting. She said that it wouldn't come through someone like Chad, and he was spreading his visions to other church members.

Wixom asked Heather if she ever had confronted Chad to tell him that she hadn't believed what he was teaching. She said that she had told Chad she wasn’t feeling good about what he was saying and that she had been very blunt. She said that Chad hadn't shown a lot of reaction and that he hadn't argue or anything.

Wixom asked Heather if she had expressed concern about whether or not Chad should move near her. She said that she and Matt had decided years ago they wanted to live apart from family and made a home for themselves in Rexburg. She said that she had told Chad if they moved to Rexburg, that would be fine but please don’t move into their neighborhood or ward. She said that she had known why he was coming and hadn't wanted him trying to draw in people from her ward and having people think that they were involved or believed in him.

She said that they had went with Chad and Tammy to look at homes and they told Heather and Matt they didn’t find a home they liked. She said that they asked if they could store some stuff in a shed. Heather said that she and Matt agreed to let them leave their stuff and were under the impression they wouldn’t be moving soon.

Wixom asked Heather how she would explain her relationship with Chad at that point. Heather said that she was relieved that they weren't moving, but strained at that point, she was struggling. She said that she was concerned that Chad was trying to convince his family and others that the earthquake and other events were going to happen and didn't let up what he was sure that an earthquake was going to happen in 2016.

Wixom asked Heather when it had been that she had found out that Tammy and Chad were moving to Rexburg. Heather said a week or two after Chad and Tammy left, they called Heather and Matt to say they put an offer on a home near them and would be moving to Rexburg. Heather said she had cried and was very upset. She said she had asked her husband to talk him out of it, but the home had already been in process of being purchased so there was nothing she could do about it.

Wixom asked Heather what her relationship was with Tammy at the time. Heather said that they were cordial and friendly to each other. She said that once they moved to Rexburg, she tried to help Tammy and then it was strained and progressed with time.

Wixom asked Heather if Chad was teaching his beliefs to his own family. She said yes. Wixom then asked her if Chad's wife and children believed what he was teaching. Heather said that in a conversation that she had had with Chad and Tammy, Chad had indicated that he'd have visions and Tammy rolled her eyes but then she'd go pray about it and then she'd get an answer that he was right. Heather said that from her observations that Chad's kids believed Chad as well.

Wixom asked Heather if there was ever a time when Chad tried to explain his visions to her children. She said yes, her oldest son came to her and Matt in 2014 and said Chad had approached him and said he was going to be a great leader in the gathering. Heather said that Chad had made her son uncomfortable, so she then went to Chad and told him not to approach her children.

Wixom asked Heather if there was any time where she had a confrontation with Chad in her back yard. Heather said in 2015 she became concerned about Tammy and wanted to know how she was doing, so they asked Chad and Tammy over. She said that Chad told her it was fine, but he wanted all the questions directed at him because he said that Tammy would get upset. Wixom asked Heather if Tammy had ever been upset with her before and Heather said no.

Wixom asked Heather if she had listened to Chad or if she had asked Tammy what she wanted to ask her. Heather said that Tammy was a grown woman, so she asked her what she wanted to. Wixom asked what the intent of the conversation was. Heather said that it was to ask if Tammy was doing ok with the move. Heather said that Tammy said she had prayed about it and felt like it was a good thing for their family. She said that Heather told Tammy she didn’t have any confirmation that Chad’s visions were going to happen.

Wixom asked Heather how long after that conversation was it when Tammy and Chad had officially moved to Rexburg. Heather said within a couple of weeks which was in summer of 2015. She said that Tammy and Chad's home was about a half mile from theirs. Heather said that when Chad and Tammy moved in, she visited a couple of times and took some bread over. She said that she had also called Tammy and gave suggestions on doctors, dentists, and etc. She said that she'd also tried to go support their kids in whatever she could.

Wixom admitted some photos that showed Chad’s home. The photo was of the back portion of the home and in the forefront, there was an add-on to the original home that the kids named the "cozy cone." Wixom asked Heather to describe what the cozy cone looked like inside. Heather said that you enter the house and go up some stairs to get into the cozy cone. She said that Mark had kept his instruments up there and when Garth moved to Rexburg, his room was in there as well.

Wixom asked Heather if she knew where Tammy and Chad's bedroom was. She said yes that you'd have to go through the front door through the living room and then down the hallway. She confirmed that if they wanted to go to or from their bedroom and the cozy cone they would have to go down or up some stairs.

Heather testified that they were in the same LDS ward as Chad and Tammy and saw each other at church one a week. She said that she tried not to have interactions with Chad at church but would try to chat with Tammy and the kids.

Wixom asked Heather if she had recalled about learning about Tammy's death. She said she did. She said that she was with Matt at a work conference in Las Vegas on the morning of October 19th, 2019, when Matt had got a call from his parents that said that Tammy had died. She said they had told her that they didn't know much. Heather said that she was very upset.

Heather said that she called Chad that day at 9am and expressed her condolences and then asked Chad what had happened. She said that Chad said Tammy had not been feeling well, started coughing around 10pm and then went to sleep. She said that he told her that around midnight, Tammy started coughing and vomited then went back to bed. Chad had told Heather that he slept from midnight to 6am because the sheet that was on him came off of him and he heard a thud. He told her that he had found Tammy had fallen off the bed and that Tammy had been gone for a little while because she was "hard." She said that Chad told her that he then had called to Garth to help him pick up Tammy and put her back on the bed.

Heather testified that what Chad said felt scripted and it made her feel very uneasy. She said that she asked if they were going to do an autopsy. She said that Chad said no, a coroner had come and looked at Tammy and clearly saw matter in her throat that caused her death.

Heather said that Chad had also told her that the funeral would be in two days. Heather said that she had told Chad they weren’t even home and asked him if he could wait until they got home along with another brother that had been out of town. Heather asked if they could wait until everyone got home so they could attend. Heather said that Chad said no, they were just going to get it done. 

Wixom asked Heather if she had attended the funeral. She said yes and it was in Springville, Utah. Heather said that the program was just Chad and his children, and the bishop had spoken at the end. She said that the opening song was "Put your shoulder to the wheel" and that she had never heard that song used at a funeral before, and it seemed strange to her.

Wixom asked Heather if at the time had she been serving a calling at the church. She said she had, and it was Stake Relief Society president. Wixom asked Heather if having that calling made her familiar with planning funerals in the LDS culture. She said yes.

Wixom asked Heather why "Put your shoulder to the wheel" was a weird song to play at a funeral. She said that it is a song about work and pushing along. She said that she thought Chad was being disingenuous at the funeral. Heather said that she observed Chad and his kids at the viewing and thought it was strange Chad was smiling and then suddenly crying just like at the funeral. She said that to her his demeanor seemed strange.

Wixom asked Heather if they had gone to a luncheon after. She said yes and that Chad was late and that Jason, Chad’s brother-in-law, announced that they would just get started without Chad. Heather said that everything seemed like a normal day to Chad and that he didn’t seem upset.

Heather testified that around 3-4 weeks later she had another conversation with Chad about how Tammy had died. She said that she had learned he was remarried, and his children were struggling and upset, so she reached out in a group text to his kids to let them know she was there if they needed her. She said that Chad called her and was upset and said that Heather had a been a problem for him his whole life. Heather said that she then asked Chad who he had married. Chad had told her that it was Lori asked Heather if she would like to meet her. Heather said that she told him no and asked what happened to Tammy. She said that Chad said she died of a pulmonary embolism because Tammy had gained 40 lbs. Heather testified that she had not noticed a big weight gain on Tammy.

Wixom asked Heather how she had reaction to Chad's explanation. She said that she was flustered because he had given her a different reason weeks before. She said that she had indicated that she was upset, and Chad told her that she hadn't have to worry because he was moving to Hawaii. Heather said that she was shocked and had asked Chad how he could get married so quickly after Tammy died. Chad said that he had known Lori for about a year before and her husband had died of a heart attack, and they were there for each other.

Heather said that she didn't understand what she had done to Chad her whole life that created a problem. She confirmed that Chad hadn't explain why. Wixom asked Heather why she had not wanted to meet Lori. Heather said that it was because she was upset with Chad that he had remarried weeks after Tammy passed. She said that it seemed almost cruel for his children.

Heather said that Chad called her a pot-stirrer.

The court took a break. When they returned Wixom asked Heather if the strain in her relationship with Chad and the kids had gotten worse since the bodies of JJ and Tylee were found buried on Chad's property. Heather said yes that she has not spoken to Chad’s children since that time.

Wixom asked Heather if she recalled that Tammy had made a trip to Utah a few weeks before she died. Heather said yes. She said that it was abnormal because Tammy didn’t like to travel alone.

Wixom asked Heather if Chad had ever said he had visions about Tammy. She said that she didn't recall him ever saying that he had visions for Tammy.

Wixom asked Heather if she had recalled what had spawned Tammy to make the trip to Utah.

Wixom admitted a photo of a staircase going up to the cozy cone area of the house. The next photo was a piano and little drum set in what Heather said she believed was in the cozy cone loft. Another photo was displayed of more musical instruments in the room.

Wixom then asked Heather if she knew the name "David Hope". She said that she did. She said that David Hope was her daughter's father-in-law as well as a retired police detective for the Rexburg police. Wixom asked Heather if he had been working at the Rexburg police department back in 2019. Heather said yes. She said that she rarely had contact with Hope. She said that they had attended a baby blessing together a few years ago and went on a family camping trip with a bunch of other families. She said that she doesn't see him often and that she had never spoken to him about the case.

Wixom asked Heather if she had tried to send some sort of documents out to her Stake to inform them of her concerns about Chad. Heather said that she had sent a letter to the 10 Relief Society presidents in her LDS stake. She said that the Relief Society presidents were in charge of keeping track of the presidents, giving them support, etc. Heather said that she believed the letter was sent during the time period JJ and Tylee were missing and Chad was in Hawaii in the beginning of 2020.

Heather testified that because Chad was a relative, she had written the letter about the importance of sticking to the basics of the gospel. She said that in the letter she mentioned about having difficulty with people not believing her and believing Chad instead.

Heather said that she had written that letter because she had some of the Relief Society presidents in the stake reach out to her because they were concerned because there were women in their ward that were following Chad’s teachings.

Heather said that in the beginning she would try to talk to the ward relief society presidency. She said that she talked once or twice with her stake president. She said that as things progressed, she became more concerned. She said that there were people in the ward that she would talk to try and stop what was happening.

Wixom asked Heather if sending the letter out has come at a cost to her and the Daybell family. She said there was a cost initially because people thought Heather was just trying to cause problems with Chad. Wixom asked Heather if it had caused damage between her and the rest of the Daybell family. She said yes and confirmed that was why she doesn't talk to Chad's kids.

Wixom has nothing further.

Prior was up for the cross. He asked Heather about speaking to Detective Mattingly on February 11th of 2020. Heather said that she had expressed concerns that Chad was doing his writings inside the LDS Church building. She said that she would notice his car there often as she drove by.

Prior said that Chad had these unusual teachings, but he was able to maintain his LDS membership. Heather said he did. Heather said that Chad was the executive secretary in his ward, who assisted the bishop and was like a councilor. She said that the bishop was the priesthood leader of the ward. Heather confirmed that a ward was a specific geographic area, and each ward has a bishop. 

Heather said that in 2014, Julie Rowe’s books that Chad was published became an issue. Heather said that Rowe's books were to prepare people for what was coming. Prior said that Rowe spoke primarily to LDS members. Heather agreed. Prior asked Heather if Rowe was looked down upon because she was doing this. Heather said by people such as herself yes, but there were quite a few in people in Rexburg that were listening and that she had filled the Tabernacle in Rexburg when she spoke.

Heather said that Chad had told her that he had reached out to Rowe on a website called AVOW. Heather said that she was never on it but she heard that it was a website with like-minded people who have visions and dreams. She said that it was kinda like a prepping site.

Prior said that Heather's husband and Chad did not have very particularly close relationship. Heather said that before 2014, they had a good relationship.

Heather said that she had been concerned that Chad had chosen to buy a home so close to hers, and Chad had talked about Heather’s land being part of whatever was coming in his visions.

Prior said that Heather once held a prominent position in the LDS faith at one time. Heather said that she had held several positions and callings. She agreed that she had been the president of the Relief Society in the Henry’s Fork Stake in 2018. She said that there were 10 wards and around 200-300 people in each ward. Heather said that she had been over the 10 ward Relief Society presidents.

Prior asked Heather if she had had access to everyone’s email addresses. Heather agreed. Prior asked if she had a recollection about what was in the letter that she had sent. Heather said that she hadn't read it for several years. 

The court took a short break. When they came back Prior provided a copy of Heather's letter to her for her to refresh her memory. 

Heather's letter wasn't read out in court, but here is some of the letter. If you have a hard time reading this, Linda from It's a Crime does a wonderful job reciting some of it.>>HERE. And if you would like to read it in its entirety you can go to Court Tv>>HERE.

Prior asked Heather what the first sentence was. Heather said that she wrote that she was forwarding an email at the request of President Dalling, the stake president. She said that Dalling asked her to forward on the top portion of the email but then Heather added her own thoughts. 

Prior asked Heather about another sentence where she wrote about her first-hand knowledge came from Dave Hope. Heather said that she wasn't referencing the investigation, she said that she was talking about her first-hand knowledge of Chad's beliefs.

Prior asked if Heather knew the person who forwarded the email. Heather said that it was the ward Relief Society president. She said that she sent the email to the 10 presidents and left is up to their discretion who they shared it with.

Prior said that Heather had injected her own personal opinion in the email. Heather agreed and said that it was because it was her community. 

Heather said that she wasn’t happy with Chad moving to Rexburg. She said had they even moved in and been somewhere further away, or they just wanted to move to Rexburg for a new start, she would have had no problem with that. She said that she had known what his purpose was, that is why she had had the problem.

Heather testified that was concerned that Chad was using the church building to write his books. She said that writing books was Chad's profession and that the church isn't used for professional purposes.

Heather said that Chad’s father referred to Heather as a pot-stirrer when she and Matt approached him about Chad’s teachings and books.

Prior had no further questions.

Wixom was up for the re-direct. He asked Heather if it was consistent for an executive secretary to be engaging in an adulterous relationship. Heather said that having an affair was not conducive to having that calling. She agreed that if the church became aware of that, the person would be subject to church discipline.

Wixom said to Heather that at some point she had become aware of Tylee's and JJ's body had been found on Chad's property. Heather said yes. Wixom then asked Heather if at the time the bodies were found had Chad still been serving as the executive secretary. Heather said that she was unsure. Wixom asked Heather if Chad had been serving in that capacity when he married Lori. Heather said that she thought so. 

Wixom asks if Julie Rowe has been excommunicated from the LDS Church. Prior objected and Boyce sustained the objection, so Heather wasn't allowed to answer. Wixom said Heather that she had been concerned about Chad's relationship with Rowe. Heather said that she had been concerned with what had been in the book that Chad had published for Rowe. She said that also, when she observed Chad and Julie together, she was concerned about their personal relationship. She said that they had seemed particularly close and that he had brought her to my home on one occasion, and it made a few of "them" feel uncomfortable. She said that when Chad brought Rowe to her home to show him the property, they walked along the land and the river. She said that “What I observed was that Chad and Julie were communicating very close to each other and Tammy and the children were following behind. It made me feel bad for Tammy that Chad appeared so close to Julie.”

Heather testified that at the time she had written the letter, she felt that Chad was a very misguided person and had gotten himself involved in relationships that were not appropriate with Rowe and Lori and that it affected other people in the process.

Heather testified that with her roll at the time in the church, it was her duty to report things that seemed not right. She said that it wasn't so much her calling but it was that she knew his car and what he was doing in the church building.

Wixom asked Heather to explain what she had been doing when Chad's dad had called her a pot-stirrer. Heather said she and Matt both went to Matt’s dad on several occasions with concerns about what Chad had been participating in. She said that most of the time the response was, "Just don’t worry about it". Heather said that one time they were talking about it in her driveway, and he had told her, "Don’t be a pot-stirrer." She said that that was in 2015-2016.

Heather said that she had hoped was that if Chad's dad said something to him about his teachings getting off track from mainstream LDS teachings, that Chad would listen. 

Heather couldn't exactly recall when she had sent the email to the stake but believed it was after the children were found.

Wixom had no further questions.

The court took a recess. When they returned the next witness to the stand was retired Rexburg Police Officer David Stubbs. Stubbs said that he had retired about three months ago. He said that he was now a specialty mechanic. He said that before his retirement, he was a sergeant supervisor in the detective division. He had been a detective since 2010. He had spent over 30 years in law enforcement. Stubbs said that he had been over digital forensics and had training on Cellebrite, a program used to find information on cell phones, tablets and computers that may been hidden or deleted.

Stubbs said that he first involvement in the case of JJ and Tylee was November 1st, 2019. He said that Arizona authorities were investigating the attempted shooting of Brandon Boudreaux and contacted Rexburg police to see if they could find a gray Jeep on Pioneer Road because it had been of interested in the shooting. Stubbs said that he and other officers went to do surveillance on the Jeep.

Stubbs said that while he had been doing surveillance, he saw Chad and Lori leave her residence and get into a blue Subaru with Arizona license plates. Stubbs said that he had followed the car to see if Chad and Lori would lead officers to the Jeep. He said that they had ended up in Idaho Falls and stopped at Mountain America Credit Union and then Hobby Lobby.

Stubbs said that two deputies from the Fremont County Sheriff’s Office, Thad Gardner and Joe Powell were in another vehicle tracking Chad and Lori’s movements as well. 

Stubbs testified that after Chad and Lori exited the vehicle, he saw them hold hands and smiling, laughing and joking with each other. He said that as they approached the store, Lori placed her head on Chad’s shoulder. Wood displayed a photo of Chad and Lori holding hands outside Hobby Lobby.

Stubbs said that after Chad and Lori went into the store, he had left, and the other deputies stayed to continue surveillance.

Wood asked Stubbs if he was aware if the Jeep had ever been found. Stubbs said yes that it had been found the fourth of that same month outside Lori's residence.

Wood asked Stubbs what his next involvement had been in JJ and Tylee's investigation. Stubbs said that on November 26th, 2019, the police department got Kay Woodcock’s request for a welfare check on JJ. She had reported that she had not heard from him for some time and had been concerned about his wellbeing. Stubbs said that he and another officer went to Lori’s apartment to try and make contact with her.

Stubbs said that he and Lt. Ball went to the apartment to help Hope and Hermosillo to look for JJ. Stubbs said that he and Ball approached apt. 175, Lori’s apartment, they knocked on the door. He said that she answered, and they told her they were there inquiring about her son as there was concern his grandmother had not heard from JJ for some time.

Wood asked Stubbs if he had been wearing a body cam and if he had footage from that day. He said yes.

Stubbs said he had informed Lori that they were there to make sure that JJ was ok and that they were preforming a welfare check. He said that Lori told him that JJ was in Arizona staying with Melanie Gibb. Stubbs asked Lori if anyone else was there at the time and she had told him that Alex was. Stubbs said that he had asked Lori if she knew Chad Daybell. Stubbs said that Lori had told him that Chad was her brother’s friend. 

Wood played Stubb's body cam footage. (I tried to do the best i could with what they were saying and who was saying it, but it might not be 100 percent accurate.

Stubbs- "Her car is out there too."

Ball- "Where?"

Stubbs- "Blue Subaru."

Ball- "Lori hi, I am Lieutenant Ball police department. How are you? You got a minute? You all alone?"

Lori- "Uh, my brothers here."

Ball- "So we're here to.."

Lori- "This is a big mess. I just talked to the guy on the phone."

Ball- "What did he ask you?"

Lori- "He was just said that he wanted to do a well check."

Stubbs- "So JJ would be where?"

Lori- "He's in Arizona."

Stubbs- "Who's he with in Arizona?"

Lori- "He's with one of my friends in Arizona."

Ball- "So who's the friend he's with?"

Lori- "My friend Melanie. Her son has autism. Her name is Melanie Gibb. I have him all the information on the phone."

Ball- "Ok, so he can call?"

Lori- "Yeah. Yeah, what is all this?"

Ball- "We're a little concerned because the officers that were here earlier were checking and they got a bad vibe, like something was going on here because nobody knew anything about a child and they weren't talking."

Lori- "It's because a lot of stuff has gone on. If you want to know, it's been a lot of stuff."

Stubbs- "Well, that's why we are concerned because it was just kind of weird."

Lori- "It is very weird, i've had to move around a lot. One of my brothers is trying to kill me. Not the brother that lives here obviously, he is kind of my protector. My other brother that was in with my husband who was trying to kill me for my $2million life insurance policy. So, a lot of stuff has gone on this year, it has been a horrible year for us. I've had to move around and so i was going to move back to Arizona and put my son back in school there because i tried to put him in school here at public school here, Kennedy."

Stubbs- "OK."

Lori- "He went for two months. We tried it but he had such a hard time. Now the person that called is my sister-in-law but she's his natural grandmother, he's adopted by us. So, her son who is a drug addict had a baby with a girl who is a drug addict, and they took him, you know CPS took him. Gave him to the grandmother she came got him and wanted us to adopt him, which we did."

Ball- "Who is us."

Lori- "My husband and i, who died earlier this year."

Stubbs- "Ok."

Lori- "He passed... Since he passed away, she's been trying to fight me for him and being really horrible to me and that kind of thing. She's kind of like the paternal friend."

Stubbs- "The paternal grandmother."

Lori- "He has autism and ADHD, he doesn't really talk to people, like he's very special needs. So, i have him in a special needs school there. She was trying to... so, what happened was who, we were married for 15 years and had raised all these 5 kids together, switched his life insurance policy to her right."

Stubbs- "Too?"

Lori- " To his sister, who got a million dollar when he died, and we got nothing for me to raise JJ and all the kids got nothing and everybody got nothing. She got a million dollars so, i knew she was going to sue me for him or..."

Stubbs- "JJ?"

Lori- "Yeah because she has this million dollars and now, she can hire people to help. And i have nothing."

Stubbs- "But you have legal custody."

Lori- "He's my son and i adopted him two years, we had him from the time he was eight months old, so two years old. She does nothing but wants to cause me trouble. So, i don't tell people the truth about where we are and what we are doing because of those reasons. So, i look like a suspect, but i am a good person. Raised all of my kids, i've done everything that i'm supposed to do in my life but everyone is causing my trouble right now."

Stubbs- "We don't want to cause a lot of trouble."

Ball- "So how long have you been here?"

Lori- "We have only been here since September.

Stubbs- "OK."

Lori- "We moved up here in September, my daughter goes to BYUI."

Stubbs- "Your daughter goes to BYUI?"

Lori- "Yeah."

Stubbs- "Does she live here?"

Lori- "Um Huh. So, it's just been a nightmare, but i'm just going to go back to Arizona so we can put him in the special needs school. He couldn't do the school here. It was too hard for him. He would scream and cry. The principal would come out and try to drag him out of the car. Like this was too hard. I just don't tell people where i am. I don't tell her where i am ever. And she doesn't have any legal rights to anything. Like she's been horrible to me since my husband died."

Ball- "My understand is she never called you to try and get the child you know 'Hey i'm interested in getting the child back' you know."

Lori- "I know, but she sends me these emails with like the date and like, like she's putting up court stuff, you know. Like she's documenting 'I haven't heard from him in all this time so'. I've told her that he's fine."

Stubbs- "See we haven't heard any of that as far as..."

Lori- "I'm just saying she's doing this as part of that's my understanding."

Stubbs- "My only concern in this whole thing is the child."

Lori- "I got it."

Stubbs- "So that's, that's where we're at. And then we were just a little weirded out when you know... and i understand that we now have heard your side of the story."

Lori- "It's awful. i feel like i am being tracked all the time like, 'Why are the police coming to my door?'"

Ball- "Well they said that they were visiting with two guys. I'm assuming one of them is your brother."

Lori- "Yeah."

Ball- "Who was the other one? The other guy that they were visiting with. There were two. Well, we had two detectives over here trying to..."

Stubbs- "Looking for you."

Lori- "Oh."

Stubbs- "A little while ago and they were looking for you."

Lori- "I ran to the store."

Ball- "Or probably one of your brothers..."

Lori- "My brother and his friend probably. He's moving."

Stubbs- "Who's the friend?"

Lori- "Chad."

Stubbs- "Chad, what's his last name, Daybell"

Lori- "So, it's just a mess that is constantly causing me trouble."

Stubbs- "Chad D A Y B E L L?"

Lori- "He's an author."

Ball- "Does he live like out in the... He's not the Chad Daybell that uh..."

Stubbs- "Didn't he lose his wife recently?"

Ball- "I don't know."

Stubbs- "Sounds familiar as an author. I think i know... Doesn't he have a couple of daughters?"

Lori- "Uh, he has lots of kids."

Ball- "Alright. You need anything else?"

Stubbs- "Sorry to bother ya. You know we didn't mean to be a problem."

Lori- "I'm sorry that people are constantly knocking, knocking for me and i just don't want to be found so..."

Stubbs- "Have you had problems?"

Lori- "I had well, the reason i am movie is because of the brother that was going to kill me that was found emails and text my ex my husband time kept showing up here, so he found out where i was and he was knocking on my door."

Stubbs- "Now this was your brother showed up here and was knocking on your door? And you said something about you getting threating emails?"

Lori- "Well, it, no... Just after my husband passed, i found emails and texts between them that they were planning all this stuff to get rid of me."

Stubbs- "Well do we need to worry about him coming over?"

Lori- "Well, that is why i am moving back, and i'm not going to be at a place, i'm moving with my friend Melanie, don't tell anybody her name, Gibb, because i don't want anything in my name. I put the apartment in my name, but i've been staying over here with my brother because he protects me."

Stubbs- "You know if he shows back up just call and we'll take care of it."

Lori- "That's what i'm saying. Like it's just, it's just a nightmare. I canceled the insurance policy since my husband passed so there's no money if they kill. So, what are they going to do with JJ? So what do people think?"

Ball- "Well if they show back up feel free to call us. Alright."

Stubbs- "Thank you."

Wood said to Stubbs that upon having that conversation with Lori did he have any concerns. Stubbs that he had several concerns. 

Wood said that he wanted to talk to Stubbs about a couple of the statements she had made. 

Wood said that Lori kept talking about her brother trying to kill her and that he had come and knocked on her door. Stubbs said yes. Wood asked him if he had found any evidence to substantiate that. Subbs said no. They didn't find evidence that he even stepped outside of Kansas.

Wood said that Lori talked about how JJ's grandmother Kay kept trying to take custody of him. Stubbs said yes. Wood asked Stubbs if he had found any evidence to support Lori's claims. Stubbs said no.

Wood said that Lori talked about Tylee being at BYU Idaho and asked Stubbs if he had looked into that. Stubbs said yes. Stubbs said that he had went to officials at the university to see if she was enrolled and found no evidence of her having applied or have been enrolled there.

Wood said that Lori had mentioned that she was trying to enroll JJ in a special needs school in Arizona and he asked Stubbs if that was accurate. Stubbs said that they found no evidence of JJ being enrolled there.

Wood said that Lori had mentioned Gibb and that she was in Arizona. Stubbs said that they investigated Gibb's location, and she wasn't in Arizona, she was in Utah.

Wood asked Stubbs how Lori had characterized Chad. Stubbs said that Lori said Chad was her brother’s friend. Stubbs said that he found that odd whereas not even a month earlier, he had seen the couple holding hands and police knew Lori and Chad were married on November 5th in Hawaii.

Wood asked Stubbs if had had other concerns while in the apartment that day. He said that he had been concerned about with Lori and Alex’s states of mind because of their possible involvement in the attempted shooting the previous month. Stubbs said that Lori said her brother was in the apartment, but Stubbs never saw him. Stubbs said he noticed the staircase to his right and there was a shadow on the wall that kept moving back and forth. He said that "It appeared to be a person moving back and forth at the top of the stairs. It made me nervous as to what that person’s intentions might be that we could not see."

Wood asked Stubbs if he went back to the apartment that day. Stubbs said yes because they could not get a hold of Melanie Gibb and they were trying to verify JJ's wellbeing. Wood asked Stubbs if he had been wearing a body cam when he went back. He said he was. Wood then played the body cam footage in court.

Ball knocked on the door and said, "Lori." Lori opened the door and Ball said that they were having trouble getting on hold of her friend. Lori said that Melanie was at "Frozen 2" with JJ. Stubbs told Lori to call Melanie and have her return the officer’s call.

Stubbs confirmed that they were not able to verify JJ’s location that day. Wood asked Stubbs if Gibb had JJ that day. Stubbs said that she did not have JJ. 

Stubbs said that after they found out what Lori told them was not true a warrant was established the following morning to search three apartments in the complex – 107 (Alex), 174 (Melani P.) and 175 (Lori).

Stubbs testified that they never saw JJ or Tylee the day they went to the apartment. Wood said that it would be a good stopping point for the day.

Darkmatter: Chad Daybell Trial: Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Erik Christensen Testified and So Did Distraught Neighbors and an Insurance Broker. (darkmatter69.blogspot.com)