Melanie Gibb was called to the stand with prosecutor Lindsey Blake doing the questioning.
When Lindsey asked Melanie G where she met Lori, Melanie G said that she met Lori at a church event in Arizona, in 2018 and they struck up a friendship. She was then asked where she met Chad. She said that she had met him at different events she had attended a year or two before she met Lori. She said that her relationship with Chad as casual and they periodically saw each other but were not close friends. Not like with Lori, whom she had been in constant contact.
Melanie G then asked about when she met JJ. She said it was within a week or two of meeting Lori. She said that sometimes she would Lori with JJ and she would seem very affectionate and loving. She watched Lori sing him a song at bedtime and seemed like she cared a lot about him, but as time went on JJ seemed frustrated and Lori was “distracted a lot”.
Lindsey then asked Melanie G how often her and Lori were in contact with each other after they first met. She said that she saw Lori daily or several times a week during the beginning of their friendship, but that all changed in January 2019 when Lori “started moving.” She said that they lived within 20- 25 minutes of each other.
The move that Melanie G said that Lori did was to Arizona to stay with Alex, then to Hawaii, then to Texas and then back to Arizona by July 2019 when Charles was killed.
Melanie G then talked about a trip she and Lori went on a trip with 5-6 other ladies for a conference in St. George, Utah sometime after October of 2018 where she observed Chad and Lori first met Chad. She said that Chad and Lori were very friendly to each other, interactive and talking a lot about the beliefs they had and there was “definitely an attraction” at the beginning. She said that Lori seemed very interested in Chad and that it seemed like she was attracted to him and flirty.
Lindsey asked Melanie G what Chad did for a living. She said that Chad was an author, a publisher and a sexton. Melanie G was then asked if she had read any of his books and she said yes. Then she was asked if Lori had read any of his books and Melanie G answered yes, a few before she met Chad.
Melanie was asked what religious talk Chad and Lori talked about when they met. She said that after she had spoken with Lori after Lori meeting Chad that “She shared with me that he told her that they had been married in another time period. She did believe that. She had already had the belief system that these multiple lives, as they would call it, she already believed that before she physically met him.” And that Lori had been married to the prophet Moroni from The Book of Mormon and that Lori had thought that before she had met Chad.
Melanie G said that after the conference she kept in touch with Chad on the phone, but not very often unlike Lori who would be often on the phone to Chad. During this time, Chad was still married to Tammy and Lori to Charles, and both were still alive.
Lindsey asked Melanie G when she learned what the term “multiple probations” meant. She replied that it was when she first started interacting with Lori and Chad introduced it through Lori to Melanie G and that he often spoke about it. Lindsey then asked what was it that Chad and Lori believed about multiple probations. Melanie G said that their definition of multiple probations changed the longer they knew each other but, in the beginning, it was believed that in this earth you could come back multiple times, but it was different for everybody.
Melanie G was then asked when was it that Chad and Lori met next. She said it was two weekends later, Chad came to Arizona for another event that Melanie G and Lori also attended. Melanie G said that before the event, Lori held a little meeting at her house, but does not remember if Chad was there. Lindsey asked what she observed between Lori and Chad that weekend. She said that after they interacted at the conference Chad stayed at Lori’s house over the weekend while Charles was out of town.
Lindsey then asked Melanie G if she recalled if Lori told her anything in November of 2018 about her Lori's relationship with Chad. She replied yes that Lori said she had been married 4-5 times as other “characters” to Chad and the weekend Chad came to Arizona, they met in the LDS temple in the waiting room and were unofficially sealed together by Moroni and Jesus Christ. That “That relationship of multiple lives was reunited.”
Melanie G then explained that in the Mormon Church it is believed that when you are sealed to someone, you are bound to them for all eternity.
Then Lori allegedly told Melanie G that she and Chad loved each other and also in previous mortal probation and that such had a lot of affection for him.
Melanie G was then asked if Lori ever told her what her mission on earth was. She replied that Lori told her before she met Chad that she thought she was a part of the 144,000 people who will be here during the return of Jesus Christ to earth. And after she met Chad, she said that she felt like her and Chad were the leaders. Melanie G was then asked to explain what the 144,000 were. She said that it is reference from scripture and Bible and the doctrine covenants about a group of 144,000 during the return of "our" savior and they would do great missionary work a spiritual endowment from on high ahead of the Second Coming.
Melanie G said that she wasn't the only one that Lori shared her mission with. She said that Lori had told her inner circle of friends which included Zulema Pastenes, Serena Sharp, Christina Atwood, someone named Nicole, Alex Cox, Melanie Pawlowski and Lori's sister Summer.
Melanie G described the light and dark scale that Lori had told her about shortly after she had met Chad. She said that Lori had told her that were light were people that had signed with the "Savior" before they came to this planet and those that were dark had signed contracts with Satan. Melanie G said that besides teaching her, Lori also taught her inner circle of friends about the light and dark scale and that over time the light and dark scale evolved over time. She said that someone could switch from light to dark and dark to light.
Melanie G said that Brandon Boudreaux and Charles Vallow were not present for these meetings and were not told about these teachings.
Lindsey asked Melanie G if Lori said anything to her about anyone being possessed. She said one day in January 2019 Lori told her told her that Chad said that Charles Vallow was taken over by an evil spirit and was now dark. Around the same time, Lori had also told Melanie G about a dream she had where Charles was in a car accident with JJ in Texas and would not be coming back home by January 1st.
The prosecution then asked Melanie G if JJ was with Charles at the time and would he have been traveling back with him to which she replied yes. Melanie then testified that when Charles wasn't in the predicted accident, she asked Lori what happened. Lori replied, “You shared you thought he was going to die. He didn’t because Satan interfered with the plan.”
Melanie G then testified that the plans that were revealed to Chad and Lori were that their spouses needed to pass away so the couple could be together. And that to her understanding, that since Charle's was dark he needed to pass away.
Lindsey then asked Melanie G to tell the court what Lori told her about castings. She said that Lori would say that she was trying to understand how to get these evil spirits out, which she would attempt to do using prayer. Melanie G said that she started participating in the casting in January/February of 2019. The first casting was held at Zulema's house with Melanie G, Zulema, Christina, Lori, Serena and Nicole in attendance. The casting involved what Melanie G said what sounded like energy work in attempts to get the evil spirit to leave the body.
The first spirit that the group cast out of Charle's body was “Ned”. Melanie G said that since Charles was still alive the teachings changed and now a spirit named “Garrick” or “Garrett” entered Charles’ body. The final spirit to enter Charles' body was “Heblows”.
Melanie G than testified that weeks after the idea of spirits taking over bodies Lori started to use the term “zombie.”
Melanie then testified that Lori was present for all the castings while Chad didn't attend any until after Charles' death. She said she could only remember for sure Chad attending one casting, which see things was the casting for Brandon. She said also said that she possibly participated in a casting for Brandon Bourdeaux. Lori told Melanie that Brandon was dark, and he had an evil spirit in him and had evolved over time into a high-level dark spirit. She said that Lori told her that Brandon was possessed by a spirit that was from Hitler's group.
Melanie G then talked about how she had been in contact with Lori after Lori came back to Arizona and even stayed at Lori's house with her. on July 9th or 10th, 2019. Melanie G was told that Alex was going to stay there the next day, which was the night before Charles died. Lori told Melanie G that Alex was spending the night at her house for protection because Charles was going to kill her.
Lindsey then asked Melanie G if Lori ever told her how Charle's died. Melanie G said yes that Lori said Charles had been in an argumentative with her. She said she that a spirit told Lori to pick up Charles’ phone he got upset and they argued. He threatened her and that is when Tylee came out with a baseball bat to protect herself and "them". The argument got very heated, Alex interacted with him and it became very argumentative. Lori told Melanie that Alex said that was then went to get his gun to protect him and then he shot Charles.
Melanie G said that within a week or two of Charles' death, Chad came to see Lori and the couple seemed happy.
Melanie G testified that before Charles. death, Chad and Lori communicated multiple times a day. She said that Lori had 2-3 cellphones, one of which was just to talk to Chad.
Lindsey asked Melanie G if Lori and Chad ever met up While Charles and Tammy were still alive. She said that Lori had told her that she would meet Chad at hotels and that “they were intimate”. Lori said she believed that it was god's will that her and Chad slept together and that they had been married in multiple lives and had a mission together.
Melanie said right before JJ was killed, Lori said he was difficult to handle and to be with Chad. Lori indicated she was going to ask Kay if Kay watch him from then on.
Melanie testified that the last time she saw Tylee was in July-August 2019, right before Lori, JJ, Tylee and Alex moved to Idaho. After the move to Idaho, Melanie remembered hearing Tylee in the background a few times, but she never saw Tylee again. During the middle of September of 2019, Melanie went to Idaho with her boyfriend to visit his on and for a seminar and also to visit Lori, because Lori asked her to. Melanie and her boyfriend David Warwick went to Idaho, they ended up staying at Lori's house. Melanie said that she didn't see Tylee and when she asked Lori where she was Lori said that she moved her in with some female friends in the dorms at the BYU campus. Melanie G and David were there from a Thursday to a Monday and did not see Tylee and did not hear anyone talk to her. When Melanie G asked where Tylee's belongings were, Lori told her that they were in storage. Lori also didn't talk about Tylee much after that.
Melanie G did see JJ while she was staying with Lori. Lori told Melanie that Chad said the day before that JJ had an evil spirit in him. She also told Melanie that she noticed that JJ's speech was more intelligent, his behavior difficult and he would say things like “I love Satan.” She told her that he would climb up on the fridge and cabinets and that he was acting more aggressive. Melanie G said that Lori "tried to explain how he was changing into a more negative type of demeanor i guess.”
The defense then asked Melanie G if this was the first time Lori talked to her about someone changing once they were dark or possessed. Melanie G said that Lori had told her that Charles had looked different, and "their behaviors would change" and maybe "they would talk to her differently."
Melanie G testified that before the visit to Idaho, that maybe she saw JJ 10 or 15 times in his life. She said that she didn't notice any changes in JJ and that he seemed to be a typical seven-year-old autistic kid. She said that she had experience with autistic children and that his behavior was normal. She also testified that she never saw JJ climbing on the counters or anything like that. However, Melanie said that she did see JJ very upset one day and so Chad took him upstairs and "took him into a bedroom with him according to Chad."
Melanie said that she visited Lori from September 19th, to September 23rd, 2019. This is after Charles had been killed but before Tammy died. She said that Chad visited but never spent the night.
When Chad came back down from taking JJ upstairs, Melanie G said she asked him why his neck was so red. Chad told her that JJ had scratched his neck.
During her visit to Lori's Melanie G said that Chad and Lori were very affectionate towards each other, he'd console Lori, kiss her on the cheek and hug her. She said that the pair had fun singing and dancing together too. Melanie G said that she walked with them around the track at BYU-Idaho and also explored the campus with them. When they went to leave Chad helped Lori in her car and gave her a kiss.
Melanie said that that weekend, Chad indicated to David that he'd appreciated it if they didn't share anyone anything about Chad and Lori's relationship and that he was still married to Tammy.
Melanie testified that the date September 22nd has a special meaning to Lori, that that was the date that Moroni appeared to her in a temple. Melanie also testified the last time that she saw JJ was when Alex took him upstairs the Sunday night while she was staying at Lori's house, which happened to be September 22nd, 2019. Melanie G didn't recall seeing JJ the next day before she left to go back home.
Lindsey then asked Melanie G if Lori talked to her about life insurance before Charles died. Melanie G said that she was in Lori's kitchen the day before Charles was killed and asked her why Charles would want to kill her. Lori said that there was a million or a few million dollars of insurance on her that he wanted to have. But then Lori told her that Charles had changed the insurance policy and if Charles died all the money would go to Kay. Melanie G asked Lori why she didn't get a divorce from Charles and Lori told her it wasn't God's will and God would penalize her for that. That is the same reason why Chad didn't want to get a divorce, because they would lose their exaltations, their standing with God.
After Melanie G's trip to Idaho, she said that she talked to Lori and Chad occasionally. In November of 2019, right before Thanksgiving Chad called Melanie G while she was in Utah and told her the Rexburg police would be calling her and not to answer the phone. He said that the police were looking for JJ. She then asked Chad wasn't JJ with Kay, Chad answered that he was not. Melanie G said that Chad had a nervous voice, so she asked him if he was nervous, and he answered yes. He then said that Lori would be contacting her shortly.
Melanie G testified that the reason why she thought JJ was with Kay is because that is what Lori had told her after Melanie's visit in September. She said that Lori had told her that she had met Kay at the airport and had asked her to take him because she had cancer.
After the phone call with Chad, Lori ended up calling Melanie G. Melanie said that Lori told her that the police had come by, and she told them that JJ was with Melanie G at the movie theater watching "Frozen". She then told Melanie G to just go to the movie theater and take random pictures of kids running around.
Melanie testified that JJ was never with her.
Melanie then testified that when law enforcement reached out to her, she didn't initially respond because she didn't know what to do. She said that previously, Lori had told her that law enforcement was dark and that they were after her, like Satan was after her like all the other dark entities and dark translated beings. She said that Kay, Lori’s dad and her brother (Adam Cox) were all after her too.
Another reason why Melanie G said that she didn't engage with police right way is that Lori had told her that JJ's life was in danger and that Kay was trying to kidnap him. Melanie said that she hadn't been sure if she should believe Lori or not and that she was in shock and perplexed.
Eventually when Melanie contacted law enforcement, she talked with officer Piller from Arizona she said that she had JJ but then didn't have him anymore and he was with Lori. Melanie then testified that she never had JJ and the reason why she said she did was because she wasn't sure 100 percent if Lori was telling the truth. She said that she felt like she was put in a really uncomfortable position, and she regretted her lie to law enforcement. She ended up talking to law enforcement again at the end of November/beginning of December and told them that JJ had never been with her and shared with them what she knew.
Lindsey then admitted a 20-minute phone call into evidence that Melanie G had previously shared with law enforcement and that she had recorded sometime in the beginning of December where she confronted Chad and Lori.
Chad- “Hello, sweet Melanie.”
Melanie G- “Hi, Chad. Hey, Lori.”
Chad- "Here, let me put it on speaker.”
Melanie G- “Oh, OK.”
Chad- “All right.”
Chad- “We’re inept with the phone.”
Melanie- “How are you guys?”
Chad- “We’re okay, how are you doing babe?”
Melanie- “I’m doing pretty good, thanks. I was wondering, where are you guys?”
Chad- “We’re just hanging out.”
Melanie- “Hanging out? Are you? Are you in Idaho?”
Lori- “No.”
Chad- “We’re nowhere near Idaho. ”
Melanie- “I just wanted to ask you a question if you don’t mind, Lori.”
Lori- “Of course, honey.”
Melanie- “I wanted to know, remember we talked about JJ going to Kay’s [Woodcock, JJ’s grandmother and Lori’s sister-in-law from prior husband Charles Vallow] house? And he told me they went there. And now he’s not there. I was wondering what happened?”
Lori- “Well, I had to move in somewhere else because of her actions. So…”
Melanie- “Was she, was she doing something? Like was she trying to come get them or something or, like trying to kidnap them?”
Lori- “Well, she’s, yeah, she said that often times before, but, umm…”
Melanie- “Okay. Well, you know, when I asked Chad the other day, I was like, hey, you know, where is JJ? And he said for my security, he didn’t want me to know. So is there a reason I should be in danger to know where he is?”
Lori- “No, it’s nobody. It’s his danger. It’s the danger that there’s people after me.”
Melanie-“Okay.”
Chad-“We just thought if you knew, that puts you in a danger.”
Lori- “Well, just in a bad position.”
Chad- “Yeah, a bad position for her.”
Lori -“Everybody. If they don’t know anything, then they don’t have to say they know.”
Melanie- “Right? So you’re just worried, okay.”
Lori- “I’m just, keep him protected…”
Chad- “And keep you protected.”
Lori- “And keep everybody else.”
Melanie- “I appreciate that. Well, I was wondering why you told the police why he was with me.”
Lori- “I just needed to use, talk somebody, so I wouldn’t have to tell them where he really was if they were going to tell Kay where he is.”
Melanie- “Oh yeah, so is it you think it’s like your family? Or you know, like your family, your dad or you know or those people?”
Lori- “Well my family, well not my whole family but as you know, most of my family is working against me and–”
Melanie- “Yeah.”
Lori - “–with her, basically.”
Melanie- “Yeah. Is JJ safe?”
Lori- “He is safe and happy.”
Melanie- “Okay, well, that’s good to hear. Are you afraid of anything? Like, are you afraid to tell me that you’re just afraid that he, umm, that I could be in danger? Like you’re, y’know like I don’t, like if I knew, like, how could that hurt me? I don’t understand all that can hurt me if I knew where he was.”
Lori- “Well, I’m just not telling anybody so that nobody has to say where he is or question to where he is so I can keep him as safe as possible.”
Melanie- “Yeah. Okay, I hope, wow. I hope he’s okay. I hope you guys are okay. I did have a question. I asked Al at one point, your brother if I wanted to know, you know, like where he was? And he said, I did not want to know and that he could not be found. So what does that mean?”
Lori- “I don’t know why he would say that. But it’s the same story. I didn’t even want Al to know I don’t want anybody to know so that nobody has to be worried about it. I mean, nobody has to be–”
Melanie- “Yeah.”
Lori- “–questioned about it so he can be safe.”
Melanie- “Yeah, so are you I mean, are you — How long are you gonna be away for? Like how, I mean, are you ever going to be able to come out and come back to society again? Are you going to keep, you know, like, come back? I mean, like, what does that look like?”
Lori- “I will do whatever the Lord needs me to do every day so…”
Melanie- “Okay. I just wondered if I was ever going to see you again.”
Lori- “Absolutely, you will.”
Melanie- “Okay, so, so maybe when they’re done chasing you, you’ll be able to come out of, JJ will come out again? Or…”
Lori- “Yeah, I mean, it’s a ridiculous thing for them to be working with Kay to find me there’s nothing that’s gone on that’s, y’know what I’m saying? Like, they’re working with her in some dark capacity. The police are working with her in some dark capacity. There’s no reason for them to be after me in the first place.”
Melanie- “Yeah. Has she, has she threatened you at all?”
Lori- “Yes, lots of times.”
Melanie- “Oh boy. What did she say?”
Lori- “Well, it’s in emails and everything. So…”
Melanie- “So, like she said she was gonna come take them or she was…”
Lori- “There’s a lot of things…”
Melanie- “Yeah.”
Lori- “…Melanie.”
Melanie- “Well I know it sounds like it. I’m just worried for you guys because you know, he’s missing. And, you know…”
Lori- “I know exactly where he is. He’s perfectly fine with me.”
Melanie- “Okay, well, I hope so.”
Lori- “(Unintelligible)”
Melanie- “I have a scripture I wanted to share with you if you don’t mind.”
Lori- “I’d love it.”
Melanie- “I was thinking about some of the things you guys have gone through. And I saw this scripture today. And I wanted to–”
Lori- “Let me ask you a question.”
Melanie- “Okay, yeah.”
Lori-“Let me ask you a question about a scripture, ‘kay? Did Alma turn yourself into King Noah? Or what it was he required to be?”
Melanie- “Well, King Noah was incredibly wicked.”
Lori- “Yes.”
Melanie- “And so he fled his, his evil ways which is, which is adultery and, and living riotously and breaking all the commandments.”
Lori- “Right. So, what did he, what was he required to do, Alma?”
Melanie- “He had to go and flee so that he would be safe and then help other people realize how, you know, jacked up the system was and the government was.”
Lori- “What about Moroni? What was he required to do at the end?”
Melanie- “To, to carry Alma’s plates and bury them. That was his responsibility,”
Lori- “What did he do that? What did he have to do to do that? Did he hide?”
Melanie- “Well, he had to hide. He had to hide because they were so–”
Lori- “Oh.”
Melanie- “They were so, everybody was killing everybody in this society everybody was dying. They were killing all the Nephites.”
Lori- “That’s, that’s, and the scriptures had to hide in the cavity of a rock by day and go out by night.”
Melanie- “The prophets, the prophets, the prophets did.”
Lori- “They did.”
Melanie- “Yep. Okay, well thank you for sharing that with me. Okay, I just, this scripture’s just something that may be thoughtful for you. ‘For behold– ‘This is Doctrine and Covenants Section 3, Verse 7 and 8. Says, ‘For behold you should not have feared man more than God. Although man set not the councils of God to despise his words, yet you should have been faithful, and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary. He would have been with you in every trouble.’ So, when we work with the Lord and are obedient, he has, he’s gonna protect us from adversarial darts and all kinds of negativity, but when we open the door to Satan, he comes in and then he attacks and then he takes away to make it look like somebody else took it away. But that’s not how God works. He doesn’t work in darkness.”
Lori- “I agree with you one hundred percent. And that’s what the Lord is doing for me. Exactly what he’s doing for me.”
Melanie- “Well, I was just–”
Lori- “We have not opened the door to darkness, Mel. Darkness is knocking on the door all the time, because that’s the way dark works with the light. And I promise you that I have done nothing wrong in this case. But sometimes you have to hide in a cavity of a rock for your own life safety. And that’s what the Lord requires of you sometimes. And that’s how it is. And I’m sorry that’s how it is because there’s a lot of darkness on the earth.”
Melanie- “I know.”
Lori- “That’s been after me for zero reason, besides the darkness of Kay, which you already know, she’s dark.”
Melanie- “I haven’t met her enough to know if she’s dark or not. I’ve just met her slightly and she seemed like a normal kind of person, but then I haven’t engaged with her that much. So I don’t know that personally.”
Lori- “So you don’t know about her changing the things for herself to be the beneficiary of the policy and also none of that’s dark right.”
Melanie- “Well, I haven’t seen those documents, so I have no way of knowing.”
Lori- “You’ve seen them on my computer.”
Melanie- “No, I have not. I haven’t even looked on your computer before. You haven’t showed me anything.”
Lori- “I don’t know why you’re being controversial to me or if you’re recording this conversation for the police or whatever, I don’t know what your intention is on this phone call.”
Melanie- “Well–”
Lori- “But I love you with all my heart and I have forever and I will always–”
Melanie- “Well, I appreciate those words. But if you really love me, you wouldn’t have told the police that I had JJ with me. That’s not, that’s not what a friend does. I mean, that just makes me look weird. And it just, it’s not safe. For me. That doesn’t look good. You have to think of my welfare if you love me.”
Lori- “I do, and I did exactly what I felt the Lord was instructing me to do. And I appreciate you and I love you.”
Melanie- “Well–”
Lori- “And I’d never to do anything to harm you. And you can have all of this confirmed to you by the Lord.”
Melanie- “I have and my, my conscience is clear. I feel very understanding what’s really going on, Lori. And I believe that, I believe that you have been very deceived by Satan. I believe that he has tricked you. And I just, I don’t believe that what you’re doing is correct. I just don’t, I mean, Tammy dies. And then your husband died. And then, and then he’s missing it just doesn’t sound like God’s plan to me. Just sounds, it gives me a gut feeling, like in my gut, it feels weird. It doesn’t feel right. I don’t have peace about I never have felt one-hundred percent peace about always felt like a little weird in my stomach about all these things.”
Lori- “You know me, Mel. You know me. This does not sound like you. It sounds like you’ve been influenced by somebody dark who wants you to believe dark things and have fear and have fear of the Celestial world.”
Melanie- “I don’t have fear.”
Lori- “You obviously do.”
Melanie- “No, I have a peace of conscience and I can see clearly.”
Lori- “Well I’m sorry that you feel that way. I love you so much.”
Melanie- “I know you do. I don’t know what else to say.”
Lori- “Stand for Christ when he comes again and he’s coming soon, and we will all stand there, and you will know at that point that he is supporting me and has supported me the whole time and I have not been deceived.”
Chad- “I just want to testify that I, I know Tammy [Daybell, Chad’s deceased first wife who died in October 2019] loves (unintelligible) and the conspiracy theories. My sister-in-law’s right behind it all and I hope that you’re not being influenced by dark game.”
Melanie- “I don’t know who she is. I’m sorry. You said your sister-in-law? I don’t even know her.”
Chad-“I know, but she’s coming up with the same type of theories. And it’s just not true. My own children were there. They testified that Tammy had been getting weaker and sick and I begged her to go to the doctor. There’s, she just, her heart was failing her. She was physically falling apart. And she hates doctors and she just passed away. That’s how it happened. My son Garth was right there with me the whole time. My kids were at the house within 20 minutes of her passing. There were two coroners. They checked her out right there on the bed. All these conspiracy theories just make me sick to my stomach. Just absolutely sick. I know, I’ve been told for years that Tammy would pass away at a young age. I had no idea that Lori would even be a part of my life. I just knew that my life had two segments and that I know Tammy’s on a special mission and she’s with my kids. She’s visited them. Just, there’s so much, Melanie, that you just have to have faith. And this is not some sort of master plan. There’s no way Lori and I could have ever come up with this. It’s just…”
Melanie- “You can understand my concern, correct?”
Chad- “I can, from an outside perspective. But, from an–”
Lori- “From someone who knows as much as you know? No, not really. But we can feel Dave’s [Warwick, Melanie’s boyfriend] influence on you. I can feel that for sure.”
Melanie- “He’s a very good man. And he has a very strong foundation. That I know.”
Lori- “I know, but he seems to be the one that’s putting the doubts in your mind.”
Melanie- “No, no, but, you know what? I have, I have come to understand that my gut feeling, I was not listening to it. And I always felt uncomfortable with many things.”
Chad- “Okay.”
Lori- “Well, I’m sorry that I included you in those teachings then for your own sake because I wish that you didn’t have as much knowledge as you have, because you will be accountable for the knowledge that you do have, Mel.”
Melanie- “So will you.”
Lori- “I agree. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I have no fear. I have no fear of that that. But–”
Melanie- “I was reading the story of Korihor and it’s so very similar to this, you just can’t see it. But he did it because he was trying to reclaim a people and he thought at the very end because of his carnal and natural desires. That’s what influenced him. And he was very, very–”
Lori- “That’s me? And carnal natural desires?”
Melanie- “Well honey, you got a lot of natural desires. We all know that.”
Lori- “That’s what you think is me? Korihor? Are you kidding me right now?”
Melanie- “I think both of you have had similar, similarities. It’s in the scriptures. It’s in the scriptures. And the scriptures are very powerful.”
Lori- “Yes, they are. I live by the scriptures, as you know.”
Melanie- “I know, but we can wrest the Scriptures for our own vainglory.”
Lori- “I wrested the scriptures?”
Melanie- “We can. We can do that and I feel that you have to (unintelligible) our belief systems.”
Lori- “Do I wrest the scriptures? That was you’re accusing me of at this point?”
Melanie- “I feel that you have.”
Lori- “How, why do you feel that way? I need an explanation on this.”
Melanie- “Because if you look like the scripture, just said, okay–”
Lori- “(Unintelligible) the scriptures every single day? Do you know?”
Melanie- “Oh, I know you read them. I don’t doubt that. But this scripture right here says that you will be supported by all against the fiery darts of the adversary. You would have been supported. If you had not opened dark portals and dark junk. You would have been safe. If you would have obeyed God, he would have had your back but you have been chased and tortured and–”
Lori- “(Unintelligible)”
Melanie- I’m sorry?”
Lori- “He has my back, so…”
Melanie- “Well, if he has your back, you would not not be able to tell me where you are. And we couldn’t find JJ. Like, where is he? I’ve been asking. Where is he? And you know what I mean? That’s, that’s not the Lord’s work.”
Lori- “I could tell everything where JJ is right now and that would not be good for JJ. So, I’m sorry that you don’t want me to protect my children. But I would never ask you to not protect your children.”
Melanie- “Of course you wouldn’t.”
Lori- “So I can tell that you’re just adversarial, Mel. I love you. I’m sorry that you feel this way.”
Melanie- “I’m not, this is because I actually do care. I’m sharing what I feel for you because I know your salvation’s in trouble for what you’ve done.”
Lori- “My salvation’s not in trouble at all and I think you should check that with the Lord again.”
Melanie- “Well I, I, I felt a lot of things from the Lord. And this doesn’t feel right.”
Lori- “Well, I’m sorry that you feel that way, sweetheart. I’m sorry that you’re friends with all those who are are against me. Joseph Smith’s friends turned against him.”
Melanie- “I’m not friends with people that are against you.”
Lori- “Apparently you are.”
Melanie- “I am not. I don’t know Kay. I don’t know who you’re talking about, your sister-in-law. I don’t even know what her name or who she is. I don’t know any of those people. Why would they contact me anyway? How would I even know about that?”
Lori- “Well, you’re friends with Dave and he’s apparently against me now.”
Melanie- “Well, David is a very righteous man. And I’ve always known that grounding about him. And he has a lot of beautiful experiences with the Lord. And these are not the same. You know, when you get the Priesthood. That’s Peter, James and John shows up and then he confirms all those in the circle that are to get it and everybody’s a witness of that. Everybody’s a witness that the pattern is in the scriptures. There’s no witness that you ever receive what you think you’ve received. Nobody has seen that but you. There’s no witness the witness Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdrey, Martin Harris. The eight witnesses. They all showed up.”
Lori- “Was there a witness when Jesus and Heavenly Father gave that to Joseph Smith by himself in the Grove, was there a witness?”
Melanie- “No, but they had it later with other people. That was one experience, but others joined in later when he brought other people into it. And they had experiences.”
Lori- “(Unintelligible) Was that in the scriptures? Yes or no?”
Melanie- “I’m sorry?”
Lori- “Is that the scriptures? Yes, or no?”
Melanie- “That, that Joseph was alone when he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ?”
Lori- “Yes.”
Melanie- “Yes, he was alone.”
Lori- “He was alone.”
Melanie- “But he opened up–”
Lori- “So that’s not a pattern at all.”
Melanie- “Honey, what I’m saying is, is that after he saw that and other people joined in, they saw the things with him. He wasn’t alone. There was a witness for them. There was no witness anybody’s never seen what you’ve seen or experienced what you’ve seen. That is your own witness, but nobody’s had that.”
Lori- “I know God knows it, and I will never deny it. For my soul would be at stake if I did. So you can say it didn’t happen to me, Mel. But if I say it, then I am accountable. You didn’t witness it. But I did.”
Melanie- “But your behaviors is not, okay–”
Lori- “(Unintelligible) Jesus Christ.”
Melanie- “I understand that’s what you, you believe you saw but this is the thing is I see is that your behaviors not one of somebody that’s seen Christ.”
Lori- “Never (unintelligible)”
Melanie- “Your behavior, your behavior. What?”
Lori- “Never had any idea that you would be the person, of all people, to drag me. I cannot believe it.”
Melanie- “I’m asking questions and I am concerned for you. That is what somebody does when they care.”
Lori- “You don’t sound like you’re concerned. You sound like you’re accusatory. You do not sound concerned. You sound pissed off.”
Melanie- “I’m not. I am very, I am troubled. Maybe that’s the better word: troubled. Because these things, like you being with Chad before he’s even divorced, is unusual behavior for a person that’s seen Jesus Christ.”
Lori- “I was never with him and he was never divorced.”
Melanie- “Honey, I’ve seen you guys together.”
Lori- “That’s your story. (Unintelligible)”
Melanie- “Oh, oh. So I haven’t ever seen you with, I’ve never seen you with Chad, kiss him and walk around the track and BYU with him. I never saw that? You say I’m–”
Lori- “You’re the one who’s feeling guilty about being with someone before they were divorced.”
Melanie- “Oh honey. I think that’s not what we’re talking about here.”
Lori- “It’s not what we’re talking about here. That’s why I’m saying. You aren’t going off the deep end. But–”
Melanie- “I’m just saying, this is not a behavior of someone that sees Jesus Christ. It’s not the behavior.”
Lori- “Really?”
Melanie- “Really.”
Lori- “Have you ever seen Jesus Christ so do you know what the future behavior would be if you’d seen Jesus Christ?”
Melanie- “I know that when I, I know that when I pray–”
Lori- “(Unintelligible) each of you every day and he does protect me and he is protecting me, and he will protect me against this accusation as well. And we will both stand there with him. And you tell me if I was lying or not when we’re both standing there with Jesus Christ.”
(Call disconnects)
Melanie- “Okay.”
Now there are a few things you need to know about some of the words that were mentioned in this call.
Korihor is an anti-Christ type figure in the Book of Mormon.
King Noah was a pretty bad guy as well. He was best known for burning the prophet Abinadi at the stake. It is also said that he presided over a wicked kingdom guided by false priests.
Melanie said she recorded the call because she wanted to know where JJ was, and she wanted to record Lori saying that Melanie didn't know where JJ was. She also wanted to learn any information she could on where Chad and Lori were.
Lindsey asked Melanie why she initially became concerned about JJ's whereabouts. Melanie testified that it was because at first, they said that JJ was safe with Kay and then the police became involved and started questioning where he was. Then Chad said that Kay didn't have him.
The defense then brough the questioning back to the last night Melanie had seen JJ, which was September 22nd, 2019. Lindsey asked her what room she stayed in at Lori's. Melanie said Lori had her sleep in Tylee's room and let David sleep in JJ's room, but she went back and forth from her room to David’s. Melanie said that while she was with David he woke up “very troubled” from a dream.
His heart was racing, and he was very scared by the dream, so Melanie grabbed her cell phone and tried to text and call Chad and Lori and even knocked on Lori's bedroom door for a blessing. However, they didn't answer the texts or phone calls and Lori's door was locked. Melanie said she never saw JJ the next morning and Lori never told her where he was.
Melanie testified that she believes that all the teachings of multiple probations, lives, people being light or dark, etc. originated from Chad and taught by both Chad and Lori. Melanie also agreed that they are not taught in the traditional LDS faith.
Melanie then testified that she had told Lori in the phone call that in her opinion Lori's character didn't represent someone who met Christ. Melanie told the court that she felt that way because of all Lori's deception, lies and the relationship that she had with Chad while their spouses were still alive.
Lindsey asked Melanie if Lori had ever said that she had seen Jesus. Melanie said that Lori had told her when they first met that he had appeared to her in the temple. Lindsey then asked Melanie if people in the Mormon church had revelations and if people came to them for guidance. Melanie said that yes, they do, but people only the people that have authority give guidance. She then asked Melanie if Lori claimed to see Jesus, if that would make people come to her for guidance. She replied that she didn't believe so.
Melanie then testified that Lori organized all the castings that she participated in.
Melanie then talked about how she found out about Tammy's death the day after she died. A friend of Melanie's had sent her a screenshot from Chad’s Facebook account announcing Tammy's death. Melanie called Lori mid-morning and told her about Tammy’s death. Melanie said that Lori told her that she already knew what happened because "Two of the girls from their group had called Lori and inquired about it.”
Melanie said she then asked Lori what happened to Tammy and Lori responded, “She had a dark entity in her, and they had to do what they could to get that spirit out of her.” Melanie stated that "they" were Lori and Chad.
Melanie then testified that Lori said that Tammy was starting to get suspicious that Chad was having an affair. She said that Lori had told her that she found out that Tammy and Charles had known each other. Melanie said that Tammy had been suspicious about the affair and had also turned dark within the two weeks before her death.
Lindsey asked Melanie what Lori's demeanor was after Charles passed away, but while Tammy was still alive. Melanie said that Lori was eager to be with Chad and frustrated that Tammy hadn't passed on yet. After Tammy passed away Melanie said that Lori was very happy to get married to Chad and never expressed any sadness or sorrow.
Melanie then went on to talk about “vibrations” and how Lori told her that they were equal to your level of spirituality. If you were at 1,000, you were at a high level called the terrestrial. The more your vibrations increased, the closer your body was to being translated and changed. Melanie said that Lori had told her that sometimes she wouldn't necessarily have to eat, she would get younger, and her menstrual cycle would not be changed. Melanie agreed that these changes would take someone beyond the normal mortal body.
Melanie then testified that Lori indicated to her that she believed that her dreams of Tammy dying would come true.
Lindsey asked Melanie if "these things" were taught to Alex Cox. Melanie said that these teachings were shared with Alex, and that he told her he believed the people Chad and Lori were hoping would pass away, which were Charles, Tylee, JJ, Tammy, were zombies. Melanie said when she told Alex she didn’t 100% believe that people could become zombies Alex responded that he 100%believed it.
Lindsey then referred back to the phone call when Melanie told Lori she had asked Alex what happened to JJ and Alex responded with, “You don’t want to know.”
That was the end of the prosecution's questioning.
